How should I have re started?

[Darrell Crow]

Clock had finished, red awarded penalty approx 40m from posts. Red elect to kick for goal, attempt is missed, caught by blue full back. Blue full back who is aware time has finished, deliberately kicks ball out of the playing area over the dead ball line. I blew for end of game. Driving home, I began to wonder, how I would have re started, if the clock was still on, red line out on the 5? Red scrum on the 5? Or I was hoping there is no case for a penalty with the full back's actions being deliberate, surely not? Please advise guys for future reference.

 

[aggie ref]

I had this happen the other week also, except the defending team attempted to catch the ball, bobbled it and it went over the dead ball line. I awarded a 22 meter drop out. Howls of protest. Another ref who happened to be playing said I should have awarded a 5-meter scrum to the attacking team. I looked it up and found it under:

22.11(a) When the ball touches the touch-in-goal line or the dead ball line, or touches anything or

anyone beyond those lines, the ball becomes dead. If the ball was played into in-goal by theattacking team, a drop-out shall be awarded to the defending team. If the ball was playedinto in-goal by the defending team, a 5-metre scrum shall be awarded and the attacking​

team throws in the ball.


So it is only important who brought the ball into in-goal, not how it might leave.

 

[Darrell Crow]

I had this happen the other week also, except the defending team attempted to catch the ball, bobbled it and it went over the dead ball line. I awarded a 22 meter drop out. Howls of protest. Another ref who happened to be playing said I should have awarded a 5-meter scrum to the attacking team. I looked it up and found it under:

22.11(a) When the ball touches the touch-in-goal line or the dead ball line, or touches anything or

anyone beyond those lines, the ball becomes dead. If the ball was played into in-goal by theattacking team, a drop-out shall be awarded to the defending team. If the ball was playedinto in-goal by the defending team, a 5-metre scrum shall be awarded and the attacking​

team throws in the ball.


So it is only important who brought the ball into in-goal, not how it might leave.

Good job, clock was off then! I was going lineout or scrum to red on 5m.

 

[DrSTU]

Darrel, you were correct in what you did.

Aggie, in this example the clock is dead and there is no time to restart for the scrum so you wouldn't award the scrum.

 

[crossref]

In goal is counter intuitive
Two weeks ago I had
.. Red defending 5m scrum
.. Red win ball and pass back to 10 in goal
.. 10 kicks, but is charged down by blue and ball goes over DBL

I had to pause for a moment before, correctly giving a 5m scrum to blue ... again protests from red, because it did *feel* like a 22 , I understood their confusion

 

[Dickie E]

In goal is counter intuitive
Two weeks ago I had
.. Red defending 5m scrum
.. Red win ball and pass back to 10 in goal
.. 10 kicks, but is charged down by blue and ball goes over DBL

I had to pause for a moment before, correctly giving a 5m scrum to blue ... again protests from red, because it did *feel* like a 22 , I understood their confusion

This gets tricky when charge down occurs right on the goal line.

 

[Dickie E]

Clock had finished, red awarded penalty approx 40m from posts. Red elect to kick for goal, attempt is missed, caught by blue full back. Blue full back who is aware time has finished, deliberately kicks ball out of the playing area over the dead ball line. I blew for end of game. Driving home, I began to wonder, how I would have re started, if the clock was still on, red line out on the 5? Red scrum on the 5? Or I was hoping there is no case for a penalty with the full back's actions being deliberate, surely not? Please advise guys for future reference.

Darrell, just to reiterate. It is not an offence to kick the ball over DBL or TiG. It is an offence to deliberately throw or knock the ball over DBL or TiG

 

[PaulDG]

Darrell, just to reiterate. It is not an offence to kick the ball over DBL or TiG.

Not only is it not an offence, IMHO it's by far the best way to end the game and I'm surprised more players don't realise that.

If they kick the ball out to touch, there's always the chance they won't make touch and now there'll be a foot race between them and the attackers - if they lose that, they could end up on the wrong side of a breakaway try.

If they kick back over the DBL, then even if they don't make it, not only do they only have to get to the ball first and put a hand on it to end the game (by making it dead in goal) but they'll have a head start on the attackers.

 

[PaulDG]

Darrell, just to reiterate. It is not an offence to kick the ball over DBL or TiG.

Not only is it not an offence, IMHO it's by far the best way to end the game and I'm surprised more players don't realise that.

If they kick the ball out to touch, there's always the chance they won't make touch and now there'll be a foot race between them and the attackers - if they lose that, they could end up on the wrong side of a breakaway try.

If they kick back over the DBL, then even if they don't make it, not only do they only have to get to the ball first and put a hand on it to end the game (by making it dead in goal) but they'll have a head start on the attackers.

 

[Darrell Crow]

The minefield of in goal, thanks fellas

 

[didds]

I appreciate that as I "get it" already I do have possibly a squint view of this... but what minefield is there in this regard?

there is only one question a ref (or anyone!) has to consider - who was responsible for putting the ball into in-goal last before the ball was made dead?

As for scenarios where the ball gets passed in and kicked out but charged down back in... its still a simple single question - who was responsible for putting the ball into in-goal last?"

The only minor wobble in this is when you come down to debating what constitutes "responsible" - such as a ball glancing off a defender's leg who didn't move. Which happens to infrequently as not to be worried about generally and whatever you as a ref decides in all likelihood won't be queried.

didds

 

[Davet]

If the PK failed and the defender caught the ball and touched it down I assume you would have no query.

By touching it down he made it dead.

By kicking it back over DBL he also made it dead - same effect, same result.

If time left = 22 DO
If time up = no-side

As Didds says all that matters is who put the ball in goal.

I did once see a defending winger pass the ball back from FoP to his FB ingoal, pass was poor and did not reach FB, attacking winger nearly got to it but, off balance, his boot clipped the ball and sent it over DBL. - Crowd baying for a 22DO because attacker "kicked it dead" - Ref correctly awards 5m scrum.

 

[Taff]

The minefield of in goal, thanks fellas

I appreciate that as I "get it" already I do have possibly a squint view of this... but what minefield is there in this regard?

Darrell, In-Goal is one of those sections where suddenly everything drops into place - or as Didds says, one day the penny drops and you "get it" and you wonder why you didn't "get it" before. As has been said, the main thing to remember is who put it in-goal? Attackers (22DO) or defenders (5m scrum).

 

[aggie ref]

I had this happen the other week also, except the defending team attempted to catch the ball, bobbled it and it went over the dead ball line. I awarded a 22 meter drop out. Howls of protest. Another ref who happened to be playing said I should have awarded a 5-meter scrum to the attacking team. I looked it up and found it under:

22.11(a) When the ball touches the touch-in-goal line or the dead ball line, or touches anything or

anyone beyond those lines, the ball becomes dead. If the ball was played into in-goal by theattacking team, a drop-out shall be awarded to the defending team. If the ball was playedinto in-goal by the defending team, a 5-metre scrum shall be awarded and the attacking​

team throws in the ball.


So it is only important who brought the ball into in-goal, not how it might leave.

Yay I got one right! And it only took 4 posts!

 

[Jenko]

Darrell, In-Goal is one of those sections where suddenly everything drops into place - or as Didds says, one day the penny drops and you "get it" and you wonder why you didn't "get it" before. As has been said, the main thing to remember is who put it in-goal? Attackers (22DO) or defenders (5m scrum).

Unless it is held up!! I made that mistake once in a game of sevens! oops :redface:

 

[didds]

... in which case it wasn't made dead...

didds

 

[PaulDG]

Darrell, In-Goal is one of those sections where suddenly everything drops into place - or as Didds says, one day the penny drops and you "get it" and you wonder why you didn't "get it" before. As has been said, the main thing to remember is who put it in-goal? Attackers (22DO) or defenders (5m scrum).

Back before we had the ELRA and we had paper exams instead, an old exam question used to be:

"Red v Blue. In open play, the blue winger kicks ahead into red's in-goal. The red full back, under pressure from the advancing blue winger picks up the ball and attempts to run out into the field of play. He realises he will be tackled and, before crossing the goal line, passes the ball back to the red centre, who is now in-goal.

The red centre attempts a clearance kick but the ball hits the goal cross bar and bounces back beyond the DBL without touching down in-goal. The ball lands beyond the DBL.

What should the restart be?"

 

[Davet]

22DO

Ball only went into in-goal once, and then stayed there until went over DBL.

Blue attacker put it in-goal

Red Defenders get 22DO

Red FB gets rocket for messin' abart rather than simply take the 22DO on offer in the first place. Red Centre gets rocket for messin' abart, rather than simply take the 22DO on offer and clear from 22 metres further upfield.

 

[Darrell Crow]

Thanks again guys, how ever complicated the scenarios are, the basic rule applies throughout.Thanks

 

[Taff]

Thanks again guys, how ever complicated the scenarios are, the basic rule applies throughout.Thanks

Exactly. That's your basic principle - there are 2 simple exceptions though eg:

1. if the attackers kick through in-goal the defenders get a scrum back option as well and
2. with a kick off or restart if it's kicked into in-goal and made dead "immediately" the non-kicking side get a "kick again or scrum" option.

As long as you remember the general rule and a couple of exceptions, the jobs a carrot.

Back before we had the ELRA and we had paper exams instead, an old exam question used to be: "Red v Blue. In open play, the blue winger kicks ahead into red's in-goal. The red full back, under pressure from the advancing blue winger picks up the ball and attempts to run out into the field of play. He realises he will be tackled and, before crossing the goal line, passes the ball back to the red centre, who is now in-goal. The red centre attempts a clearance kick but the ball hits the goal cross bar and bounces back beyond the DBL without touching down in-goal. The ball lands beyond the DBL. What should the restart be?"

22m DO. Blue kicked it into in-goal ... and the ball went dead. All the other stuff is just there to complicate matters.