In other news......

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,120
Post Likes
2,377
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
I'm surprised Ian hasn't picked up on this.

Netball World Cup: New Zealand stun hosts Australia to top pool

New Zealand set the Netball World Cup alight when they upset defending champions Australia 52-47 in their pool match. The new-look Silvers Ferns defied pre-tournament sceptics as they claimed their first win over the hotly-favoured Cup hosts in their last 10 meetings.

If the Diamonds had been under any impression that winning a third consecutive world title at home would be straightforward, they received a cold reality check in front of a world-record crowd of 16,233 at Allphones Arena.
 

Dickie E


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Messages
14,166
Post Likes
2,169
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
back under your bridge, Mr Troll

troll.jpg
 

Ian_Cook


Referees in New Zealand
Staff member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
13,684
Post Likes
1,771
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
I'm surprised Ian hasn't picked up on this.

Netball World Cup: New Zealand stun hosts Australia to top pool

New Zealand set the Netball World Cup alight when they upset defending champions Australia 52-47 in their pool match. The new-look Silvers Ferns defied pre-tournament sceptics as they claimed their first win over the hotly-favoured Cup hosts in their last 10 meetings.

If the Diamonds had been under any impression that winning a third consecutive world title at home would be straightforward, they received a cold reality check in front of a world-record crowd of 16,233 at Allphones Arena.


I watched the highlights tonight... at least it makes the weekend not a complete dead loss!:biggrin:

Of course, one Australian sports team struggled to even get their game into the weekend!:pepper:
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
16,120
Post Likes
2,377
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
In the interest of appeasing Dickie, honours would appear to be even.

NZ, Oz and England have all won something this weekend. Let's all congratulate each other on the diversity of our sports :clap:
 

Dixie


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
12,773
Post Likes
338
NZ, Oz and England have all won something this weekend. Let's all congratulate each other on the diversity of our sports :clap:

You call cricket a sport???
 

TheBFG


Referees in England
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
4,392
Post Likes
237
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
anything that involves kicking an Australian's arse is sport :wink:
 

Camquin

Rugby Expert
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
1,653
Post Likes
310
Unfortunately the Aussies have just beaten the English.

Still it only the pool stages and if they can beat the Saffers and the Welsh they will probably meet the Black Ferns in the Semi Finals.
Meanwhile the Aussies will probably come up against the Jamaicans.

It must be one of the few sports where the nation that invented it does not even qualify for the World Cup.
 

SimonSmith


Referees in Australia
Staff member
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
9,386
Post Likes
1,488
Unfortunately the Aussies have just beaten the English.

Still it only the pool stages and if they can beat the Saffers and the Welsh they will probably meet the Black Ferns in the Semi Finals.
Meanwhile the Aussies will probably come up against the Jamaicans.

It must be one of the few sports where the nation that invented it does not even qualify for the World Cup.

England. Argentina 1978
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,813
Post Likes
3,152
I think you will find that (like most games) netball was invented in England, who are at the world cup.


"Netball is a ball sport played by two teams of seven players. Its development, derived from early versions of basketball, began in England in the 1890s. By 1960, international playing rules had been standardised for the game, and the International Federation of Netball and Women's Basketball (later renamed the International Netball Federation (INF)) was formed. As of 2011, the INF comprises more than 60 national teams organized into five global regions"
Wikipedia
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
7,815
Post Likes
1,008
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
I was trying, unusually, to be tactful

I think the example was contrived in so far as you managed to qualify in 1978. :wow:

You'll be posting Archie Gemmill's goal against Holland next.:wink:
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
I think you will find that (like most games) netball was invented in England, who are at the world cup.
I think not.

Netball traces its roots to basketball. Basketball was invented in 1891 by James Naismith, a Canadian physical education instructor working in the United States, who was trying to develop an indoor sport for his students at the YMCA Training School (now Springfield College) in Springfield, Massachusetts.[SUP][1][/SUP] His game was first played in the campus gymnasium on a court roughly half the size of a regulation NBA court today, between two teams of nine players. It was played with a soccer ball that was shot into closed-bottom peach baskets that were nailed to the gymnasium wall.[SUP][2][/SUP]Women teachers became interested in Naismith's game soon afterwards. Senda Berenson, a physical education instructor at nearbySmith College, read an article on Naismith's game, and in 1892 adapted his game for her female students.[SUP][3][/SUP] Berenson devised rules that maintained feminine decorum and slowed down potentially "strenuous" play. She divided the playing court into thirds, each containing three players per team that could not leave their assigned zone. Players also could not hold the ball for more than three seconds, dribble it more than three times, or snatch the ball from another player.[SUP][2][/SUP] The first game of women's basketball was played in 1892 at Smith College. By 1895, women's basketball had spread across the United States, with variations of the rules emerging in different areas.[SUP][2][/SUP]
Published rules for women's basketball first appeared in 1895, written by Clara Gregory Baer, who was working as a physical education instructor at Sophie Newcomb College in New Orleans during the 1890s. Baer introduced women's basketball to her female students at Sophie Newcomb College as early as 1893.[SUP][4][/SUP] According to the IFNA, Baer received a copy of the basketball rules from Naismith, but she misinterpreted his unclear drawings marking the zones that players could best control, believing that they were restrictions on player movement.[SUP][1][/SUP] Naismith noted that Baer's game was substantially different from his version and recommended that she give her sport a different name.[SUP][5][/SUP] In 1895, Baer published the rules of her game under the name "basquette"; these were the first published rules for women's basketball. The rules of this game were substantially different from Berenson's, although similarly adapted for women's participation. Each player was assigned a zone on court to which they were confined, and so a game with seven players per team was played on a court with seven zones.[SUP][6][/SUP] She also forbade dribbling of the ball and guarding, introduced alternating offensive/defensive roles after each goal was scored, and developed rules to maintain elegant posture among players.[SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][7][/SUP][SUP][8][/SUP]
Eventually, the first unified rules of women's basketball were published in the Spalding Athletic Library Rules for Women's Basket Ball in 1901, with Berenson as editor and with some rules adopted from Baer's game.[SUP][9][/SUP] Starting from 1918, the rules of women's basketball were gradually rewritten to more closely resemble men's basketball,[SUP][2][/SUP] and today basketball is played under the same rules by men and women. However, a different sport emerged when basketball arrived in England.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_netball
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,813
Post Likes
3,152
OB.. your quote stopped just before you arrived at the invention of netball!

Having covered the development of women's basket ball, the article goes on to cover the subsequent invention of netball

However, a different sport emerged when basketball arrived in England.

"Net Ball" in the British Empire[edit]
A group of 15 women in long-sleeved shirts and ankle-length skirts on a grass netball court.
English women playing netball in 1910.
Basketball was first introduced to England in 1892 through the YMCA at Birkenhead in Merseyside, although the sport did not gain significant popularity in that country for another two decades.[10] Basketball was also taught at other institutions in England, either by visiting American instructors or by English people returning from visits to North America.

In 1893, Martina Bergman-Österberg informally introduced one version of basketball to her female physical training students at the Hampstead Physical Training College in London, after having seen the game being played in the United States.[11] Madame Österberg advocated physical fitness for women to better prepare them for motherhood and in the wider context of women's emancipation.[12] Basketball was more formally introduced to Madame Österberg's college by an American lecturer, Dr Toles (alternatively spelled "Toll"), in 1895.[13][14] This version of the game was played with waste paper baskets for goals that were hung on walls; there were also no lines, boundaries, or circles as in the modern game.[13]

The rules of this game were modified at Madame Österberg's college (which moved to Dartford, Kent in 1895) over several years. Substantial revisions were made during a visit in 1897 from another American teacher, Miss Porter, who introduced rules from women's basketball in the United States; the game also moved outdoors onto grass courts, the playing court was divided into three zones, and the baskets were replaced with rings that had nets.[5][13] By this time, the new sport had also acquired a new name: "net ball".[15] The first codified rules of netball were published in 1900[15] or 1901[14] by the Ling Association (later the Physical Education Association), with 250 copies of the rules published. From England, the game of netball was spread to all corners of the British Empire.

In some countries, the sport still retained the name "women's (outdoor) basketball" upon its arrival. "Women's basketball" arrived in Australia reportedly as early as 1897,[7] although most sources agree that it was established in that country around the start of the 20th century.[16] "Women's basketball" arrived in New Zealand in 1906[17] or 1907[18] from Australia. By 1909, "netball" was also being played in schools in Jamaica.[19] Netball spread throughout much of the British Empire during the first half of the 20th century.

:)
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
OB.. your quote stopped just before you arrived at the invention of netball!
Not really. The essence of the history is that Basketball was invented in the USA and a women's version was also developed there which later evolved into a game that became know as netball (the actual name is not that significant) when it spread to other countries.

In the USA the game became more aligned with men's basketball over the years, whereas elsewhere it evolved differently, but there is no doubt that the basic concept came from the USA.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,813
Post Likes
3,152
well the basic concept - throwing a ball through a hoop - was undoubtably invented many times in many places.

the NBA say
The First basketball type game may have been played by the early Olmec people of ancient Mexico as early as 500 years go. The Aztec, and Mayan cultures also had a game similar to basketball, only instead of a rubber ball they used the decapitated skulls of their conquered foes.
http://nbahoopsonline.com/Articles/History1.html

korfball is another game that chares the has the same basic concept and was invented in 1902, but was based on an earlier Swedish game called ringball.
note that in ringball the pitch was zoned -- one of the two key feature that distinguishes netball from modern basketball.

Korfball has Dutch origins.[1] In 1902 Nico Broekhuysen, a Dutch school teacher from Amsterdam, was sent to Nääs, a town in Sweden, to follow an educational course about teaching gymnastics to children. This is where he was introduced to the Swedish game 'ringboll'. In ringboll one could score points by throwing the ball through a ring that was attached to a 3 m pole. Men and women played together, and the field was divided into three zones. Players could not leave their zone

basketball was invented in 1891
In early December 1891, Canadian Dr. James Naismith,[4] a physical education professor and instructor at the International Young Men's Christian Association Training School[5] (YMCA) (today, Springfield College) in Springfield, Massachusetts was trying to keep his gym class active on a rainy day
very likely Naismith (an immigrant) has seen something similar in Europe.

One imagine that Martina Bergman-Österberg (who codified netball in England) may well heard of korfball/ringnall in Sweden / Netherlands as well as basket ball / womans basket ball in US


What defines a specific game - as distinct from a concept - is formalising a set of written down rules/Laws.

This mostly happened in C19th / early 20th, as indeed is the case for rugby. We talk about rugby being invented in the CC19th as that was when the Laws were written, but of course the basic concept of football was much much older.

it seems to me that modern game we call netball was forst codified in England
 
Last edited:

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
I don't think anybody challenges the claim that Naismith invented basketball de novo. Two crucial differences in netball (restrictions on player location and no dribbling) seem to have arisen in the USA almost immediately. It appears that there were several versions of basketball brought across to the UK very soon after Naismith's invention, and the development of netball as distinct from basketball certainly proceeded here, not in the USA. However I think any claim that we invented it is largely semantic. We took and developed someone else's codification.

The Victorians codified a lot of sports. Rugby and soccer arose out of a generic concept of football which was largely uncodified. The Times used to report both under the heading of Football, specifying in the text which set of rules (Association or Rugby) was involved. Most public schools had their own versions. Soccer was formally codified in 1863 and rugby in 1871, but neither date marks the invention of the game. There had been earlier versions of both, some written down some not.
 

Rushforth


Referees in Holland
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
1,300
Post Likes
92
If we are going to play the semantics game, then William Webb Ellis "invented" Rugby League as well as American Football, according to that logic.

The fundamental difference between Rugby and Soccer is that the former allows handling of the ball, but passing only backwards. That was codified in League years ago, but still has not been in Union. American Football, in contrast, allows a single forward throw.

I haven't played netball for 25 years back in Cambridge, and the young ladies I played with and against made anything but the "elegant posture" ruled for in your quote. They were also very good at it. But I digress.

OB.., your argument is based on cherry-picking a part of the history of the sport, which according to wikipedia wasn't standardised until the 1956-1970 cold war period globally. Crossref's argument isn't quite as badly damaged by this - nobody would argue that netball didn't exist before the Great War - so he's won the debate. Sorry ;)
 

Pegleg

Rugby Expert
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
3,330
Post Likes
536
Current Referee grade:
Level 3
Using wiki as a reference usually ends in tears.
 
Top