[Law] Incorrectly taken free kick

[Dickie E]

From my experience refereeing age grade from u9 to u15, a knee tap provides a jump on the opposition and almost always creates frustration and anger from the defending side when a referee lets this happen. Tapping off the knee does provide an advantage, and what reasonable answer can a referee offer when the defending captain complains?

Also, in my experience, inconsistent refereeing and "personal interpretation of the laws" typically leads to frustrated players and an escalation of unruly conduct.

this ^^^

 

[TigerCraig]

Gotcha :wink:

u13's right :clap:

13A's - very good players mostly having played in district representative teams at the State championships earlier in the season, and a semi final, so end of the season. They knew full well how to take a tap restart.

As I said, no-one on either side had a complaint.

If it was round 1 for the 13D's I might give them a retake.

I generally referee U16-U18 and would never give them a freebie.

 

[Phil E]

Taking a tap correctly is a skill that needs to be learnt.
If you let them get away with doing it incorrectly they won't learn.

However, depending on the age I might just bring them back to do it properly the first time, then penalise after that.
It's something I always cover with the 9/10 at the brief, so they can't complain if pinged.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Very different question.

However, I'm not in RFU land so I can't answer where the RFU allows "ME" to be considered. Of course if you can consider ME then you are ignoring nothing. You may take of immediate action in terms of a sanction but you can play on with an appropriate word and the next stoppage. So Flish would not be ignoring the situation.

So just for complete clarity because ambiguity doesn't help anyone. Is it just the knee that gets a free pass or can the player touch the ball on their shoulder, elbow, etc and play on under the banner of no ME? Does the ball have to touch anything at all or is a vague wave of the ball in the leg area sufficient?

I refer you to the post you quoted, highlighting the salient part you see to have missed. Or to put it another way. Since I do nort referee in RFU land I cannot answer your question. I trust this clarifies things for you.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I was doing an Under 13 semi final 5 or so years back. Time up, team trailing by 5 had a penalty, took tap incorrectly. I blew it up and called full time. Noone complained.

What would you have done if the team taking the tap were 5 point up rather than down?

 

[TigerCraig]

What would you have done if the team taking the tap were 5 point up rather

Probably the same. If I thought they were being smartasses and trying to end the game I might have given a penalty, but unlikely.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

So you'd probably let them win by default? Okay, "sounds" equitable. What about the instuction at restarts etc that he ball must return into play? Do you not think logic requires that here also?

 

[crossref]

What about the instuction at restarts etc that he ball must return into play? Do you not think logic requires that here also?

That is exactly the logic behind 'take it properly' ... if they didn't actually kick it then the PK hasn't yet happened ... so take it ...

Which for me made perfect sense

But the law makers in their wisdom decree that it's an offence a scrum. So the PK has been taken, but incorrectly and it's a scrum, so it's full time.

 

[chbg]

But the law makers in their wisdom decree that it's an offence a scrum. So the PK has been taken, but incorrectly and it's a scrum, so it's full time.

But we don't end the game on an incorrectly taken re-start, nor a line-out not thrown straight, or do we?

 

[TigerCraig]

So you'd probably let them win by default? Okay, "sounds" equitable. What about the instuction at restarts etc that he ball must return into play? Do you not think logic requires that here also?

That wasn't the instruction at the time

 

[Dickie E]

So you'd probably let them win by default? Okay, "sounds" equitable. What about the instuction at restarts etc that he ball must return into play? Do you not think logic requires that here also?

I've never seen any "instruction" regarding PK or FK being taken correctly. But using logic for a FK situation, the kicking team could simply kick the ball into touch if they wanted the game to end.

 

[menace]

but kneeing the ball is not a kick so the player that does so hasn't transgressed any of the 7 requirements in the yellow box. It's the same as taking the FK in the wrong location.

Indeed. So, as kneeing is not a kick, kneeing can't be viewed as taking a kick incorrectly. QED

Dickie E - one could easily argue that is flawed logic and being pedantic with sematics.

"The kicker may punt, drop-kick or place-kick (other than for touch) the ball."

so bump off the knee.
did he punt? NO
did he drop kick? NO
did he place kick? NO

Then he did not satisfy the requirement to restart..clearly a breach. Scrum over. QED.

Whether, based on age, skill level etc, you decide to allow a retake to teach them correctly is up to you. If you want to ignore the law for the scrum over, that's also up to you. But IMO, and i think we agree, not a situation to 'let it go' (up to about u14 i would let them take it again but u15 and up..it's scrum over, they learn pretty quick from then on!).

One of the differences between our game and that 'thugby league' game is how we take a quick tap so IMO make them do it properly.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

That wasn't the instruction at the time

I am sorry for not guessing the date of the game correctly.

 

[crossref]

but kneeing the ball is not a kick so the player that does so hasn't transgressed any of the 7 requirements in the yellow box. It's the same as taking the FK in the wrong location.

hasn't the player transgressed 20.8 ?

[LAWS]20.8 The kicker may punt, drop-kick or place-kick (other than for touch) the ball.[/LAWS]

 

[Blackberry]

So, have I read it right, an incorrectly taken free kick results in a scrum to the other side?

Also, I think if in overtime you don't tap then kick a penalty to touch, the resultant lineout is taken. I'm guessing the same for a free kick.

 

[Dickie E]

Also, I think if in overtime you don't tap then kick a penalty to touch, the resultant lineout is taken. I'm guessing the same for a free kick.

No. Law 5.7(c) specifically refers to penalty kick:

[LAWS]A penalty is kicked into touch without the ball first being tapped and without the ball touching another player. [/LAWS]

 

[Dickie E]

hasn't the player transgressed 20.8 ?

[LAWS]20.8 The kicker may punt, drop-kick or place-kick (other than for touch) the ball.[/LAWS]

yes and it is all down to intent. If the player intends to recommence the game by using a body part that isn't his/her foot then it is an infringement. If there is no intent (eg player bounces ball on knee absent-mindedly while waiting for captain to make a decision) then no infringement.

 

[TigerCraig]

I am sorry for not guessing the date of the game correctly.

My post said "5 or so years ago"

 

[Marc Wakeham]

My post said "5 or so years ago"

The ruling that restarts had to be taken properly was made in 2010 so was it more like 10 or so year than " 5 or so"?. It is relvant to things.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

yes and it is all down to intent. If the player intends to recommence the game by using a body part that isn't his/her foot then it is an infringement. If there is no intent (eg player bounces ball on knee absent-mindedly while waiting for captain to make a decision) then no infringement.

Twisting the scenario to suit. It's clear that scenario in brackets is far from taking the restart illegally as we are all discussing.