Interception by knocking ball forward and gather?

[Stu10]

I believe this has been discussed before, and I assume there will not be consensus here, but I'm going to ask anyway!

This has come up in a Society discussion - what is the decision? I'm going to offer 2 scenarios to see if they get the same or different result.

1. Blue player goes for an interception, makes contact with hand on ball thus propelling the ball forwards through the air, the player then catches the ball before it hits the ground or another player and runs in a try.
2. Blue player goes for an interception, makes contact with hand on ball thus propelling the ball forwards and upwards over a red player, the player then catches the ball before it hits the ground or another player and runs in a try.

Do you award the try or a penalty for contravening law 11.3?

Law 11.3 A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction: Penalty.

 

[Decorily]

For me 2 (as I'm visualising) would be an intentional knock forward to gain an advantage....penalty Red .

1 in my mind is not clear....would have to see it but I think it could go either way!!

 

[Locke]

If he regathers the ball before it hits the ground or another player, I would not penalize, based on the definition of knock-on provided in the laws. I believe that definition applies here since the law that applies, 11.3, is in the “Knock-on” section of the “Knock-on or Throw Forward” law.

I also think that law 11.4 backs up this interpretation, although it is not as clear.

 

[Decorily]

If he regathers the ball before it hits the ground or another player, I would not penalize, based on the definition of knock-on provided in the laws. I believe that definition applies here since the law that applies, 11.3, is in the “Knock-on” section of the “Knock-on or Throw Forward” law.

I also think that law 11.4 backs up this interpretation, although it is not as clear.

It's not really a question of it being a 'knock on' or not.

 

[Dixpat]

In the OP neither of the scenarios suggests that it was an intentional KO therefore play on

 

[crossref]

it's all about intention. you have to judge intention

 

[Stu10]

In the OP neither of the scenarios suggests that it was an intentional KO therefore play on

It's not a knock-on according to the definition, however, what is your decision if I tell you both scenarios included an international knock forward?

 

[Dixpat]

It's not a knock-on according to the definition, however, what is your decision if I tell you both scenarios included an intentional knock forward?

Corrected unintentional error!

In entertainment rugby 1: play on, 2: penalty

In the weeds I suspect the laws would be applied and both a penalty

 

[Blackberry]

Are a "knock on" and a "knock forward" different events? A knock on is where you lose the ball so it goes forward touches the ground / another player.

A knock forward is where you fail to initially control the ball and in doing so propel the ball forward before regathering control. I think this is not allowed and could be sanctioned if the degree of forward propulsion exceeds that expect of a regathering.

 

[Balones]

An unintentional bounce up and over is different to a deliberate knock-up and over. 11.3 seems quite clear on this. We have to draw a line somewhere or else we will end up with a game akin to basketball. I believe that line should be when the ball goes over a defender. When this happens I don’t think the knocking-on player deserves to benefit from what is basically an error or lack of skill.

 

[Dickie E]

Would we allow the defender to tackle the knocker-onner while the ball is in the air?

 

[SimonSmith]

Would we allow the defender to tackle the knocker-onner while the ball is in the air?

If it's Tim Stimpson, then yes.

 

[SimonSmith]

There's a difference for me between an attempted interception that goes up or forward a bit and then is regathered, and a deliberate knock on in order to facilitate an interception.

 

[didds]

For me 2 (as I'm visualising) would be an intentional knock forward to gain an advantage....penalty Red .

1 in my mind is not clear....would have to see it but I think it could go either way!!

the only difference between Stu's 1 & 2 is that in 2 the ball goes over a defender's head.

IF you are going to allow 2, then you "have" to permit 1.
IF you are going to PK 2 then 1 is open to conjecture - other than to say in normal play that is play on eg receiving a pass. You can after all be legally tackled when "juggling" the ball in this manner CF Tim Stimpson versus South Africa

 

[Decorily]

the only difference between Stu's 1 & 2 is that in 2 the ball goes over a defender's head.

IF you are going to allow 2, then you "have" to permit 1.
IF you are going to PK 2 then 1 is open to conjecture - other than to say in normal play that is play on eg receiving a pass. You can after all be legally tackled when "juggling" the ball in this manner CF Tim Stimpson versus South Africa

There is a difference between 'juggling' and intentionally propelling the ball forward with the hand.

Can't be sure which best describes the OPs scenario.

 

[Blackberry]

Here's how I see it; a knock on and a knock forward are different events and both sanctionable.

We allow a degree of lattitude in identifying a knock forward, such as allowing a catcher time to gather the ball, but not to permit a player failing to gather and in so doing to get an advantage, such as knocking the ball forward over a defender.

 

[Volun-selected]

Would we allow the defender to tackle the knocker-onner while the ball is in the air?

I wouldn’t, I’d see that as tackling off the ball. The ball is available to play for so the attention should be on that … or altering their timing to tackle once the player gathers the ball, or a gentle shoulder to shoulder nudge to ensure it becomes a knock on.

 

[didds]

There is a difference between 'juggling' and intentionally propelling the ball forward with the hand.

Can't be sure which best describes the OPs scenario.

and that's the [point.

The OP doesn't say its intentional.

 

[didds]

I wouldn’t, I’d see that as tackling off the ball.

The ref in SA v Eng wrt the Tim Stimpson scenario would disagree with you.

 

[Phil E]

I am sure there was a clarification that said if you are juggling to catch the ball you are fair game as its deemed as in possession?