Interception by knocking ball forward and gather?

[Volun-selected]

The ref in SA v Eng wrt the Tim Stimpson scenario would disagree with you.

I managed to miss all the games this weekend due to other commitments and just working through them now. Won’t get to England until tomorrow or Thursday

 

[didds]

I managed to miss all the games this weekend due to other commitments and just working through them now. Won’t get to England until tomorrow or Thursday

"The ref in SA v Eng wrt the Tim Stimpson scenario would disagree with you."
was in the year 2000.

 

[crossref]

Still very much

"The ref in SA v Eng wrt the Tim Stimpson scenario would disagree with you."
was in the year 2000.

Still very much a live discussion here on rugbyrefs.com

 

[didds]

Still very much

Still very much a live discussion here on rugbyrefs.com

oh yes.

But it didn't happen at the weekend. which was my point.

Volun-selected said:
I managed to miss all the games this weekend due to other commitments and just working through them now. Won’t get to England until tomorrow or Thursday

 

[Locke]

For whatever it’s worth, here is a clip of Joe Marchant with what I see as a clearly “deliberate” or “intentional” knock forward that he regathers before it hits the ground and then scores.
The try was awarded and I agree with the call.

 

[didds]

so if that knock forward by marchant had gone over the last defender's head first ... ?

TBH if that wasn't a deliberate knock forward then I'm not really sure what is.

 

[Decorily]

so if that knock forward by marchant had gone over the last defender's head first ... ?

Would that be relevant?

 

[crossref]

so if that knock forward by marchant had gone over the last defender's head first ... ?

TBH if that wasn't a deliberate knock forward then I'm not really sure what is.

would love to see that one sent to WR for a clarification

 

[Stu10]

"The ref in SA v Eng wrt the Tim Stimpson scenario would disagree with you."
was in the year 2000.

Can anyone find a clip?

 

[Locke]

I am sure there was a clarification that said if you are juggling to catch the ball you are fair game as it’s deemed as in possession?

I think you’re right, Phil.

Law 9.14
A player must not tackle an opponent who is not in possession of the ball.

Law Definition: Possession
An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it under control.

My interpretation is that if you are juggling to catch the ball, you are considered to have possession and can be tackled.

 

[Balones]

I think knocking the ball forward slightly to help maintain your own control over the ball without any opposition nearby is completely different to knock the ball away from a defender or over a defender to maintain possession or to beat them/go past them. But appreciate there may be difficulty in determining this on the margins.

 

[didds]

Can anyone find a clip?

Ive looked time and time again Stu and fail every time.

its probably worth searching through old posts here TBH

update: nope - i just searched. stimpson comes up a few times but no obvious video clip linked with those occurrences

 

[crossref]

I think knocking the ball forward slightly to help maintain your own control over the ball without any opposition nearby is completely different to knock the ball away from a defender or over a defender to maintain possession or to beat them/go past them. But appreciate there may be difficulty in determining this on the margins.

What do you think about the Marchant clip in #25 ?
I am torn, TBH

 

[Balones]

What do you think about the Marchant clip in #25 ?
I am torn, TBH

It‘s probably one of the marginals based on what I have just written. But if I was to be asked to vote I’d vote for this action to be made illegal. It is clearly a deliberate (intentional) knock-on. If we apply the letter of the law it will make it easier for all of us and achieve a higher degree of consistency which will be of benefit to the game as a whole.

 

[Locke]

It‘s probably one of the marginals based on what I have just written. But if I was to be asked to vote I’d vote for this action to be made illegal. It is clearly a deliberate (intentional) knock-on. If we apply the letter of the law it will make it easier for all of us and achieve a higher degree of consistency which will be of benefit to the game as a whole.

My minority opinion is that the letter of the law allows this. I think the only issue is that the wording of 11.3 makes it sound like it’s talking about something other than a knock on that is intentional. I think the placement of 11.3 and especially the context and clarification that 11.4 provides leads me to comfortably conclude that what Marchant did in the clip and what this thread OP asks about are both legal.

I think 11.4 clarifies 11.3. I can’t think of a reason 11.4 needs to exist unless it’s clarifying 11.3. I think they are talking about the same action, an intentional knock-on.

 

[Dickie E]

Another consideration:

Law 11.1 "A knock-on may occur anywhere in the playing area."

Was Marchant/the ball inside the playing area when contact was made?

 

[Stu10]

It‘s probably one of the marginals based on what I have just written. But if I was to be asked to vote I’d vote for this action to be made illegal. It is clearly a deliberate (intentional) knock-on. If we apply the letter of the law it will make it easier for all of us and achieve a higher degree of consistency which will be of benefit to the game as a whole.

It's definitely not a knock-on, because the ball didn't touch the ground or another player before being regathered. That it 100% clear based on the definition.
This contentious issue is around 11.3, which describes a knock forward... is a knock forward the same as a knock-on?

 

[Balones]

It's definitely not a knock-on, because the ball didn't touch the ground or another player before being regathered. That it 100% clear based on the definition.
This contentious issue is around 11.3, which describes a knock forward... is a knock forward the same as a knock-on?

I think you have put your finger on the real issue. The definitions and laws are not clearly and unambiguously aligned with each other. Which do/should we apply when officiating?

What I definitely don’t want to see is a deliberate knock-forward/on which goes over a defender.

 

[crossref]

I am at loss to know what the "correct" decision is .. ie what would WR say if they were asked

If I had been the ref I would have awarded the try I think

 

[Jz558]

Ive always worked on the basis that a knock on is accidental and if gathered before etc etc .... is fine but a deliberate knock forward isn't. Unfortunately in this case I'd be struggling. If I'm honest I'd probably award the try but, if he'd knocked it over another player to score I wouldn't. I couldnt point to a law reference to back this up however.