Is he allowed kick?

[Chogan]

Red's kicker receives a :noyc:.
9:45 into the card there's a LO. The red bench ask if time on the card is up. The officials say next play.
In the following play red score a try while still down to 14 men.

Is this player allowed to come on and take the conversion? Or must he wait for the restart to have any further action in this game?

 

[Taff]

Wasn't there a clarification on something like this?

My feeling is if he's served his "time" and the ball is dead, why not let him back on?

 

[The umpire]

I think he's OK. The clarification, IIRC, was about subs coming on and not being allowed to kick for goal straight away - an attempt to stop the American Football dedicated kicker.

 

[crossref]

I would let him come on and kick

 

[beckett50]

No IMO.

Comes on after the kick, as play is (theoretically) still in progress as the kicker has 90 seconds from the try being scored to take the conversion attempt.

 

[talbazar]

I'd say no too.

The play hasn't restarted yet. That's why a restart is called... huh... a restart... epper:

Edit: to clarify my line of thoughts:
- The ball was made dead when the try was scored.
- The sin-binned player can take part to the next play.
- The conversion is not a restart of play
- Next play starts on the restart.

 

[Camquin]

I thought you came on whenever the ball was dead.
For example I thought you could come on at a scrum or line out.
If a hooker can come back and throw in, why shouldn't a kicker come back and kick.
Provided of course the full ten minutes were up when the try was scored.

 

[Browner]

After a try the clock doesnt stop, so isnt the kick the next play, ?

 

[menace]

As one priority of the No 4/5 duties (in big games) in our area is to 'have 15 on 15 where possible' in referring to subs movement and getting YC players on, we would often allow the subs to occur when conversions were being taken (and radio them into ref). So I don't see any reason that if YC 10 mins expired and he can come back on to then allow them to kick (within the 90sec of course). Advantage of this also is the ref can 'chat' to him after the kick about maintaining his discipline for the rest of the game. Win/win IMO. But certainly would like to know if there is a law that prevents it?


Edit. After a quick look. Think I might have to retract that statement! (My highlights)
Ie
[LAWS]Dead: The ball is out of play. This happens when the ball has gone outside the playing area and remained there, or when the referee has blown the whistle to indicate a stoppage in play, or when a conversion kick has been taken.[/LAWS]
And
[LAWS]3.11 Player wishing to rejoin the match
(b)
A player who leaves a match because of injury or any other reason must not rejoin the match until the referee permits the player to return. The referee must not let a player rejoin a match until the ball is dead.[/LAWS]

So it seems the ball is not dead until AFTER the conversion is taken, unless you argue that blowing the whistle for the try is also to indicate a stoppage?

After thinking on this, I would not allow the YC kicker returning to take the kick (I would allow him on in prep for restart), but should, say the the opp kick the ball away and I blow time off, then I'd be inclined to then let the YC kicker to take it (ie ball is now dead by fault of the opp, and so kicker can now enter the play when I restart time for the conversion kick). Though I sense I'm setting myself up here if I did allow it.

 

[Decorily]

I would concur with Menace as above. (Edit version). Blowing for the try is not a stoppage in itself and both teams must retire behind respective lines and remain there , but a stoppage could occur between the time the try is awarded and the conversion kick for some other reason.

 

[crossref]

i think people are confusing themselves. of course a try is a stoppage and an opportunity for replacements, for a drink and for a YC player to come back on.

there is no restriction in the Laws that stops a YC player taking a kick with his first touch of ball.

 

[Camquin]

So play stops, the player's retreat 50m apart but it is not a stoppage in play.
Can I have some of what he is smoking.

I hope whoever is next redrafting the laws is watching these discussions, as each one shows hopw open to interpretation the current laws are.

Camquin

 

[RobLev]

...

So it seems the ball is not dead until AFTER the conversion is taken, unless you argue that blowing the whistle for the try is also to indicate a stoppage?

...

This interpretation would create an inconsistency between a defender touching down in-goal, which makes the ball dead (eg see law 22.7(a)), and an attacking player doing so, which (by this interpretation) doesn't.

And 22.11(c) answers the point:

"When a player scores a try or makes a touch down, the ball becomes dead"

 

[Toby Warren]

Surely the 10minutes would up just in time for the restart. (Aka managing it)

 

[pwhaling]

I had this scenario once. I let him take the kick (luckily he misswd so it was a non issue)

 

[crossref]

Surely the 10minutes would up just in time for the restart. (Aka managing it)

that may sound wise, but it isn't really: you are deciding that you are not going to let him kick, but creating a subterfuge on timing to avoid having to justify the decision.


anyway, sometimes it will be crystal clear to everyone that the time is up (eg perhaps they asked at the last scrum how much longer was left, and it ws 1 minute, following which there was a good two or three minutes of play leading up to the try)

 

[menace]

As one priority of the No 4/5 duties (in big games) in our area is to 'have 15 on 15 where possible' in referring to subs movement and getting YC players on, we would often allow the subs to occur when conversions were being taken (and radio them into ref). So I don't see any reason that if YC 10 mins expired and he can come back on to then allow them to kick (within the 90sec of course). Advantage of this also is the ref can 'chat' to him after the kick about maintaining his discipline for the rest of the game. Win/win IMO. But certainly would like to know if there is a law that prevents it?


Edit. After a quick look. Think I might have to retract that statement! (My highlights)
Ie
[LAWS]Dead: The ball is out of play. This happens when the ball has gone outside the playing area and remained there, or when the referee has blown the whistle to indicate a stoppage in play, or when a conversion kick has been taken.[/LAWS]
And
[LAWS]3.11 Player wishing to rejoin the match
(b)
A player who leaves a match because of injury or any other reason must not rejoin the match until the referee permits the player to return. The referee must not let a player rejoin a match until the ball is dead.[/LAWS]

So it seems the ball is not dead until AFTER the conversion is taken, unless you argue that blowing the whistle for the try is also to indicate a stoppage?

After thinking on this, I would not allow the YC kicker returning to take the kick (I would allow him on in prep for restart), but should, say the the opp kick the ball away and I blow time off, then I'd be inclined to then let the YC kicker to take it (ie ball is now dead by fault of the opp, and so kicker can now enter the play when I restart time for the conversion kick). Though I sense I'm setting myself up here if I did allow it.

i think people are confusing themselves. of course a try is a stoppage and an opportunity for replacements, for a drink and for a YC player to come back on.

there is no restriction in the Laws that stops a YC player taking a kick with his first touch of ball.

This interpretation would create an inconsistency between a defender touching down in-goal, which makes the ball dead (eg see law 22.7(a)), and an attacking player doing so, which (by this interpretation) doesn't.

And 22.11(c) answers the point:

Brilliant RobLev...thanks. Missed that law! So back to my original thought and definitely can allow the returning yc player to take conversion. Makes sense as I thought but glad it's backed up in law.

Obviously the point of the conversion in the defs is for an unsuccessful conversion when no whistle is blown and so it's clear ball is automatically dead, but pity IRB didn't add try to the dead ball defs just for clarity.

 

[Camquin]

The laws are in desperate need of a good edit.

Mind you - even if someone did edit them and apply all the clarifications etc., I am sure we would still find things to discuss about interpretation.

 

[crossref]

one of the things we would need to do is clarify and refine the concept of a ball being 'dead', it's the source of a lot of debate in various scenarios where we need to distinguish
- the ball is half-dead (one side can still play the ball at the will, but the other team can't), as opposed to
- really dead - where neither side can play the ball until the referee tells them.

 

[Decorily]

I thought you came on whenever the ball was dead.

No, you come on whenever the referee tells you to come on.

So play stops, the player's retreat 50m apart but it is not a stoppage in play.
Can I have some of what he is smoking.

I hope whoever is next redrafting the laws is watching these discussions, as each one shows hopw open to interpretation the current laws are.

Camquin

I dont smoke...but feel free yourself!

Yes whistle is blown to award a try, players move apart and must abide by certain laws until the conversion kick is taken/attempted/disallowed. This is not a stoppage because if it were it would not be possible for a team to continue playing ie;scoring.

From a refereeing perspective it is also not a time to do housekeeping as the kick, and all the required conditions must be observed, supervised and recorded.