Is this a knock-on?

[Play On!]

I've heard a couple of different answers to this.

If a player gets tackled, loses control of the ball temporarily on the way down, but reaches out and catches it before it hits the ground, is that a knock on? What if the player is on the ground himself when he catches it?

 

[OB..]

Technically, if he catches it before he (or the ball) hits the ground, no knock-on; once on the ground he is out of the game and should not play the ball until he regains his feet.

 

[Play On!]

Technically, if he catches it before he (or the ball) hits the ground, no knock-on; once on the ground he is out of the game and should not play the ball until he regains his feet.

So, say he's on his knees on the way down and catches it. Do you penalise him for playing the ball on the ground, or just give a scrum to the opposition?

 

[SimonSmith]

On his knees is still on the ground, no?

 

[David J.]

So the scenario is:

Red ball carrier. Wrapped by Blue and Red loses the ball forward. Red brought to his knees and catches the ball before it hits the ground. Red's body hits the ground. Red releases.

This sequence is going to happen so quickly, I just can't see penalizing a player for playing on the ground. I fear we're judging millimeters here. Play on.

Also, if a player didn't have the ball when his knees the ground, is he a tackled player? If not, we've got the "Can a player on the ground play the ball" can of worms.

 

[chopper15]

So the scenario is:

Red ball carrier. Wrapped by Blue and Red loses the ball forward. Red brought to his knees and catches the ball before it hits the ground. Red's body hits the ground. Red releases.

This sequence is going to happen so quickly, I just can't see penalizing a player for playing on the ground. I fear we're judging millimeters here. Play on.

Also, if a player didn't have the ball when his knees the ground, is he a tackled player? If not, we've got the "Can a player on the ground play the ball" can of worms.

On initial contact with the tackler the ball is lost fwd into the air.

So when held for the actual tackle that brought him to his knees, he didn't have the ball.

Therefore, as he was tackled with no ball he can reach out and catch it and the tackler would be obliged to release him to avoid being penalised?

 

[Dickie E]

On initial contact with the tackler the ball is lost fwd into the air.

So when held for the actual tackle that brought him to his knees, he didn't have the ball.

Therefore, as he was tackled with no ball he can reach out and catch it and the tackler would be obliged to release him to avoid being penalised?

Yes & no.

IMHO a player that juggles the ball (ier knocks it forward and regathers) is deemed not to have lost it at all. He can still be tackled as though he maintained possession of the ball and, equity-wise, can regather as, or even after, he hits the ground.

A tackler is still entitled to complete the tackle but is then required to release the ball carrier as per Law 15.4.

 

[David J.]

On initial contact with the tackler the ball is lost fwd into the air.

So when held for the actual tackle that brought him to his knees, he didn't have the ball.

Therefore, as he was tackled with no ball he can reach out and catch it and the tackler would be obliged to release him to avoid being penalised?

This sequence of events will happen so quickly, I can't see penalizing anyone.

 

[Greg Collins]

IMHO a player that juggles the ball (ier knocks it forward and regathers) is deemed not to have lost it at all.

Presumably just the once, and not while covering 50 metres running up the pitch juggling as he goes? in which case how much ground do you let him cover whilst juggling?

 

[Dickie E]

Provided he isn't doing it on purpose, I'd have no limit.

 

[Greg Collins]

Think we will agree to differ.....:chin:

 

[Dickie E]

Think we will agree to differ.....:chin:

why? what is your limit?

 

[Deeps]

Provided he isn't doing it on purpose, I'd have no limit.

I agree, there is lot of precedence. As long as the ball carrier eventually catches the ball it is not a knock on.

 

[ex-lucy]

i had a similar scenario the other Sat ... green 12 attacking into the blue 22m .. tremendous offensive hit/tackle by blue 15 ... hits green 12 so hard green 12 tumbles and knocks on ... or so it seems!
The ball balloons up in to the air ...
Green 12 falls....
the ball lands on green 12 .. in his arms ... he plays it immediately backwards ..
i shout 'play on .. no knock on'

(my problem here was that the ball was in the air so long after the hit that i called 'adv blue, scrum, knock on' .. then had to rescind it... "think, wait, talk, wait, whistle..". i didnt whistle but i should have thought and waited longer)
lesson learnt

 

[Greg Collins]

why? what is your limit?

At my level its a hypothetical one, they always drop it on the floor in the end and I give the mark for the scrum from the place where the last touch was.

I've had a chip on my shoulder for donkey's year about this one - on tour in my 20's the south of France we lost a game after a winger juggled a pass on our 22 and kept on juggling until he finally caught it as he crossed the line.

but I promise to ref nicely and stick with precedent albeit, perhaps, with the same low threshold for what is deliberate as I'd apply to a deliberate knock on, so one handed jugglers best watch out!

 

[Pablo]

Greg, the act of juggling shouldn't render the juggler immune from tackling - he is, IMHO, "in possession" of the ball during the juggle. See Tim Stimpson vs South Africa however many years ago it was (OB will know!).

 

[Greg Collins]

yes but 25 years ago I didn't know that, didn't tackle him at the start when he made his first big juggle and mates still taunt me about it today!

 

[Simon Thomas]

Hand up here - a few years ago now.

On Exchange in Devon, level 7 at the time hoping to get to 6, and a well know SW Peninsular Assessor watching me (with sharpened pencils at the ready !).

Tough fiery match and I am doing pretty well with usual problem areas ok e.g. spotting first offences, keeping players on their feet at tackle / ruck, managing offsides with open stance, etc. Control ok, communication ok, cool/calm/collected (this is know in assessor trade as marking the C's !).

Then ball passed out to red wing on blue's 22m line, he fumbles it, it goes forward and as I am so wound up and adrenelin full, out goes my arm for advantage blue anticipating (or 'seeing' a knock on, tackler bounces off him at hips, he juggles it, and juggles it and juggles it and as he gets control I blow my whistle ! Knocked on in contact my call, scrum blue. No one comments and we finish match. I am pleased with my performance and skippers seem happy and even coaches. Shower, change and go to clubhouse for de-brief.

It starts ok, complimented on speed around pitch for man of my age and stature (think mid 40s Teletubby), good empathy and control, etc etc. I am relaxing. Mistake, as he then asks me about a critical decision - ooops, at level 7 and higher this is a referee 'danger signal' - I am on full alert.

I am asked to recall the events above - it could have been a match winning try in a low score close match, but it was a knock on I say. Did the ball touch ground says assessor, did it hit an opposition player, was it re-adjustment, was it deliberate 'pat' forward ? I am convinced in my own mind that I saw a knock-on (impact of tackler was quite hard but he was powerful lad on red wing) until the penny dropped as assessor sat there silent.

So key exchange report with a 'critical' on it, so never did make it to level 6 !

 

[Phil E]

yes but 25 years ago I didn't know that, didn't tackle him at the start when he made his first big juggle and mates still taunt me about it today!

Play to the whistle:chin:

 

[OB..]

17th June 2000.