[Ruck] Jackaling

[nylluma]

Hey all,
I play back row in a Turkish team, and was away from rugby for a long time because of a series of injuries. What I am wondering is the refs’ opinions on “jackaling.” Before the rule change it was pretty straightforward, no contact no ruck, so jackaling was allowed. The new ruck rule confused me a bit with one man ruck being allowed. When is the opposing team member considered “arrived” etc. If you can clarify, I’ll be delighted.
Cheers

 

[Arabcheif]

@Nylluma - Basically if you get your hands on the ball before the ball carrier's support arrives. You can keep your hands on it until you either win the ball, get pushed back or pulled off your feet. If the support arrives first - no hands.

Another point if you've got hands on the ball and are trying to draw the pen for not releasing the ball (by holding it against the call carrier's body). You may find the ref can tell and penalise you instead.

 

[tewdric]

Exactly as Arabchief says - although I'd add a couple of things. I am a newish ref but played lock or 6 for 25+ years so have a good idea of what the law says and also what players generally get away with!

If the jackaller arrives first I look for hands straight on the ball - not on the ground or another player first - and the jackaller must be supporting their own weight and on their feet - many rest knees on a player on the ground. The law says they should have head above hips, and while there is generally a bit of leeway allowed here I do look for a strong stable splayed posture so I can see they are doing their best. If they achieve this and survive the first clear out attempt and are actively trying to play the ball not merely hold it on, they win the turnover.

This is a worthwhile (but not definitive!) read:

https://rugbydump.com/news/brian-odriscoll-masterclass-defensive-play-at-the-breakdown/

 

[thepercy]

Another thing to consider if you have been away for a while, if you are part of the tackle, including wrapping up the ball, and staying on your feet while the ball carrier goes to ground, you must come from your side of the ball and have a clear release before you can go for the jackal.

 

[nylluma]

Thank you all for your responses. What I am confused about is “as soon as the opposition player arrives, no hands can be used” bit. What constitutes an “arrival?” Is contact required, or being in front of the ruck suffice? How do the refs decide?

 

[Arabcheif]

If you've got your hands on the ball already, you can keep competing for the ball.
The point on which the support player arrives is he needs to bind in order to form the ruck. If you're there and hands on already you can compete and keep your hands in.
If there's split seconds between though, the ref will prob ping you a it'll be nearly impossible for him to tell who was in first.
Also if he tells you no hands it's probably because he thinks you're competing illegally in error.

 

[Phil E]

If you've got your hands on the ball already, you can keep competing for the ball.
The point on which the support player arrives is he needs to bind in order to form the ruck. If you're there and hands on already you can compete and keep your hands in.
If there's split seconds between though, the ref will prob ping you a it'll be nearly impossible for him to tell who was in first.
Also if he tells you no hands it's probably because he thinks you're competing illegally in error.

Binding is not required to form a ruck.

[LAWS]2. A ruck is formed when at least one player from each team are in contact, on their feet
and over the ball which is on the ground.[/LAWS]

 

[Arabcheif]

So, for me "in contact" means binding Phil E. Otherwise your not in the ruck. As you need to be bound on to be part of a ruck. I've never seen 2 people in a ruck merely touching. Seems a bit of a pansy ruck to me lol. Further to this, you need be bound to your opponent before making contact, otherwise you're just charging into a ruck.

 

[Phil E]

So, for me "in contact" means binding Phil E. Otherwise your not in the ruck. As you need to be bound on to be part of a ruck. I've never seen 2 people in a ruck merely touching. Seems a bit of a pansy ruck to me lol. Further to this, you need be bound to your opponent before making contact, otherwise you're just charging into a ruck.

Not exactly.

To clarify, you don't need to bind to FORM a ruck, you just need contact.
But you do need to bind to JOIN an already formed ruck.

 

[Arabcheif]

So, to clarify, I can run "recklessly" into an opponent who is competing for the ball and bash him off because the ruck isn't formed yet? Nope not buying. You're not allowed to just bash someone of, you must either before or simultaneously bind before/as you make contact.

9.20 (a) [FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without binding onto another player in the ruck or maul.[/FONT]

 

[Phil E]

So, to clarify, I can run "recklessly" into an opponent who is competing for the ball and bash him off because the ruck isn't formed yet? Nope not buying. You're not allowed to just bash someone of, you must either before or simultaneously bind before/as you make contact.

9.20 (a) [FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without binding onto another player in the ruck or maul.[/FONT]

Well I quoted you the law. If you choose to ignore it then i'm done.

 

[Arabcheif]

And I quoted another rucking Law. Where do we go from here??

 

[Rich_NL]

So, to clarify, I can run "recklessly" into an opponent who is competing for the ball and bash him off because the ruck isn't formed yet? Nope not buying. You're not allowed to just bash someone of, you must either before or simultaneously bind before/as you make contact.

9.20 (a) [FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without binding onto another player in the ruck or maul.[/FONT]

You don't need to buy it, that's the way the law works.

There's a tackle. Until two opposing players make physical contact, there's no ruck. Once that happens - say, red 6 grabs blue 12's shirt and tries to wrestle him away without binding - there's a ruck. Now, any subsequent players have to bind on from behind the ruck.

9.20 doesn't apply to red 6, because the ruck doesn't exist before the contact.

So: as soon as physical contact is made, the ruck exists and the would-be jackaller can't use hands. Binding isn't required to prevent the jackal - even resting your hands on the jackaller is enough.

 

[Arabcheif]

You don't need to buy it, that's the way the law works.

There's a tackle. Until two opposing players make physical contact, there's no ruck. Once that happens - say, red 6 grabs blue 12's shirt and tries to wrestle him away without binding - there's a ruck. Now, any subsequent players have to bind on from behind the ruck.

9.20 doesn't apply to red 6, because the ruck doesn't exist before the contact.

So: as soon as physical contact is made, the ruck exists and the would-be jackaller can't use hands. Binding isn't required to prevent the jackal - even resting your hands on the jackaller is enough.

So R6 Grabs B12's shirt. This is binding.



But I'll defer and when I get Red Carded for charging in, and take it to the SRU, I'll be sure to quote you guys.... Wish me luck.
When he you ever seen someone resting their hands on someone in a ruck situation. I've only seen it when the support player of the BC gets there first and there's no jackaller.

Further to this, the would be jackaller is still permitted to keep his hands there, provided he's had them on the ball before the ruck is formed.

 

[Rich_NL]

So R6 Grabs B12's shirt. This is binding.

No, it's not at all. Check your definitions:

Binding: [FONT=fs_blakeregular]Grasping another player’s body firmly between the shoulders and the hips with the whole arm in contact from hand to shoulder.[/FONT]

But I'll defer and when I get Red Carded for charging in, and take it to the SRU, I'll be sure to quote you guys.... Wish me luck.

Charging is still illegal and cardable in open play. But if you get carded for charging into a ruck when there was no ruck, you might have a case.

Point is: you don't need to bind to form a ruck. You do to join a ruck.

When he you ever seen someone resting their hands on someone in a ruck situation. I've only seen it when the support player of the BC gets there first and there's no jackaller.

Further to this, the would be jackaller is still permitted to keep his hands there, provided he's had them on the ball before the ruck is formed.

Can't start using hands, I should indeed have said. And the resting hands was by means of example, not a playing tip.

 

[Phil E]

[LAWS]FORMING A RUCK
2. A ruck is formed when at least one player from each team are in contact, on their feet
and over the ball which is on the ground.[/LAWS]

[LAWS]JOINING A RUCK
5. An arriving player must be on their feet and join from behind their offside line.
6. A player may join alongside but not in front of the hindmost player.
7. A player must bind onto a team-mate or an opposition player. The bind must precede or
be simultaneous with contact with any other part of the body.[/LAWS]

[LAWS]Binding: Grasping another player’s body firmly between the shoulders and the hips with the
whole arm in contact from hand to shoulder.[/LAWS]

A player is stood over the ball attempting to jackle it (or not).
An opposition player comes in and grabs him by holding his shirt, or arm, or attempting to drive him off the ball. NOW a ruck is formed.
Yes he must make contact legally and safely, but he doesn't need to satisfy the definition of binding by making contact with a full arm from wrist to shoulder.
If his first contact with the would be jackler is to shoulder charge him to the head then of course he will get penalised, but if he just grabs his shirt and tries to pull him away then he is legal and we have a ruck, even though he hasn't bound on (according to the definition of binding).
Further players joining what is now a ruck must bind on and not just stand to the side of the ruck resting a hand on the back of a fellow player. They are not bound, so are not part of the ruck and are therefore offside (in front of the back foot).

I hope that has made it clearer.

 

[ChrisR]

If you have to engage an opponent (make contact) to get to the ball then he has "arrived" at the ruck and no hands are allowed.

Same applies for the arriving BC support, he can play the ball back with his hands(or pick it up) until contact with an opponent creates a true ruck. Any disagreement here?

 

[SimonSmith]

Two opposing players arrive at the breakdown.
Both decide to try to get the ball and squat to get hands on.
They meet, shoulder to shoulder without binding on each other.

Ruck formed.

 

[mcroker]

Not sure this conversation is helping OP much....

 

[ChrisR]

For the OP: If the jackler can get hands on the ball without making contact with the BC support then the BC support hasn't yet "arrived".