[Ruck] Jackaling

[Taff]

Thank you all for your responses. What I am confused about is “as soon as the opposition player arrives, no hands can be used” bit. What constitutes an “arrival?” Is contact required, or being in front of the ruck suffice? How do the refs decide?

What I think World Rugby meant to say nylluma was

“as soon as the opposition player arrives, no NEW hands can be used”

Funnily enough I clarified this very point at our regional workshop yesterday. What I was told was if the Jackler is legal, he stays legal, ie if he's allowed to grab the ball (no ruck formed) and a ruck forms after he has his hands on the ball legally, the Jackler can KEEP his hands on the ball but nobody else can go for it.

So, to clarify, I can run "recklessly" into an opponent who is competing for the ball and bash him off because the ruck isn't formed yet?

No, because you are still subject to Dangerous Play laws. The lawbook allows you to clear out a Jackler as long as it isn't dangerous.

And I quoted another rucking Law. Where do we go from here??

Where do you go from here? Well, if you make a reckless shoulder charge to an opponents head, then probably an early bath. :biggrin:

Do they still have baths these days? :chin:

 

[Arabcheif]

No, because you are still subject to Dangerous Play laws. The lawbook allows you to clear out a Jackler as long as it isn't dangerous.


Where do you go from here? Well, if you make a reckless shoulder charge to an opponents head, then probably an early bath. :biggrin:

Do they still have baths these days? :chin:[/QUOTE]

@Taff this is the point I was making. The safe way to clear out needs you to bind to your opponent before or as contact is made. The other seemed to me anyway to be saying that this wasn't needed. In fact one said I may even have an appeal case for the subsequent RC. I know that's wrong Charging to clear out before or after a ruck is form, requires a bind. I say again, I've NEVER seen to player just coming together to form a ruck.

 

[Taff]

... Taff this is the point I was making. The safe way to clear out needs you to bind to your opponent before or as contact is made.

But a player doesn't HAVE to bind on to a Jackler over the ball to create a Ruck. Eg if there's a tackled player, ball on the ground and an opposing Jackler, just grabbing the Jackler would create a Ruck because all the requirements are met. Of course you wouldn't win the ball just by grabbing a Jackler (I assume you would want the ball) but you've created a Ruck whether you meant to or not.

 

[Arabcheif]

Ok it may not be a legalistic "binding." this refers to binding to players in the same team as you in a ruck or to the opp front rows in a scrum. But it's a common language thing the grabbing a player over a tackled BC is binding onto him.

 

[nylluma]

What I think World Rugby meant to say nylluma was

“as soon as the opposition player arrives, no NEW hands can be used”

Funnily enough I clarified this very point at our regional workshop yesterday. What I was told was if the Jackler is legal, he stays legal, ie if he's allowed to grab the ball (no ruck formed) and a ruck forms after he has his hands on the ball legally, the Jackler can KEEP his hands on the ball but nobody else can go for it.

Position in 12:27

How would you interpret this one? I know the player has "arrived" before he tried to play the ball, but something seems odd. Can you prevent jackling just by touching? And if blue did not touch, would green be allowed to jackle or is blue considered "arrived" already?

 

[didds]

presumably no ruck is formed until contact is made - so if blue and gr5een both can get jhands on without conbtact with each other (stratching stuff here I know) then both can continue. Though frankly if I were one of those a shove on my oppo will clear him out possibly leaving the ball for me!

 

[ChrisR]

How it's played and how it's called in 7s (on the tour) is the best example of what I'd like to see. In XVs there are too many excess players with nothing better to do than flop onto a pile for a rest.:biggrin:

 

[Taff]

How would you interpret this one? I know the player has "arrived" before he tried to play the ball, but something seems odd. Can you prevent jackling just by touching? And if blue did not touch, would green be allowed to jackle or is blue considered "arrived" already?

Sorry but that link doesn't work for me nylluma.

Like Didds says though, my feeling is that if 2 opposing players get their hands on the ball before they come into contact with each other (thereby creating a Ruck) then working on the principle that "If they're legal, then they stay legal" then I reckon both can still fight for the ball ... but only those 2 can touch the ball as the Ruck is now formed and no new hands can be used. It's going to be very fine margins though, but you should be in the best position to decide which side of the line it is. :biggrin:

presumably no ruck is formed until contact is made - so if blue and gr5een both can get jhands on without conbtact with each other (stratching stuff here I know) then both can continue.

That's how I understand it too.

 

[nylluma]

Oh my bad, it's this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uY1ScwJqTk&t=747s

So we're always looking for contact, and if there's none, one can play ball, but just standing there won't suffice?

 

[Arabcheif]

Ah that one. I personally thought it was harsh at the time. I think, and i can only guess, the BC's support players made contact with him and formed a ruck. Then they slid forward and beyond the ruck in my opinion. He was entitled to go for the ball. I think the ref felt the ruck was still valid? don't know because the 2 Scottish players were on the ground at the time too. I do remember the was talk of him being off his feet. Yeah maybe for a split second, his hand touched the ground. But again i think this would've been harsh too.

 

[Taff]

Oh my bad, it's this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uY1ScwJqTk&t=747s
So we're always looking for contact, and if there's none, one can play ball, but just standing there won't suffice?

These things are going to happen so fast that even if you had 10 International Referees watching the same play, I reckon you would get a range of opinions. Personally, I reckon we just need to get it clear in our minds how things are meant to work; ie Did the jackler get his hands on the ball before the ruck formed? Did the next player up stay on his feet and form a ruck? Were the next lot of hands on the ball before or after the ruck formed? If it was before the ruck formed then it's play on - if it was after the ruck formed, then it's a PK offence. For me, I find that thinking "Ruck" quietly in my head when the ruck forms helps because you then look for hands going in after that point. It works for me, but it may not work for you.

Don't worry yourself over it. I have no doubt some players will question your decision; the only thing you can do is go by what YOU saw .... and be consistent.

 

[Dickie E]

I thought the Scottish players were unfairly rewarded for setting up a shite ruck.

 

[thepercy]

But a player doesn't HAVE to bind on to a Jackler over the ball to create a Ruck. Eg if there's a tackled player, ball on the ground and an opposing Jackler, just grabbing the Jackler would create a Ruck because all the requirements are met. Of course you wouldn't win the ball just by grabbing a Jackler (I assume you would want the ball) but you've created a Ruck whether you meant to or not.

Would it be illegal to grab an opponent that:

was jackling, and off balance them, away from the breakdown, while you or a teammate stand over the ball, creating a ruck?

was jackling, and shove them off the ball with hands (not shoulder) knocking them back, stand over the ball and create a ruck?

without binding per the definitions.

 

[Pablo]

I thought the Scottish players were unfairly rewarded for setting up a shite ruck.

Completely agree!

 

[L'irlandais]

Munster’s flanker/captain feels the jackal is getting tougher because tackled players are wising up.