[Ruck] Jackling - valid or too late?

[WoodyOne]

From my game on Sat, White had a flanker who was a good jackler and frequently quick and well positioned but wasn't quite hitting the mark for me. I'd like to work out if I was being harsh. In short, he sets himself up to jackle, gets hand to ball (ON ball, but not yet a grip, if that makes sense), but simultaneous/fractionally after this the ruck forms as oppo support arrives and engages him. He's strong and doesn't get driven off, but doesn't pick up the ball. I don't see the BC holding on to the ball or disrupting him. In short White just hasn't got a good enough purchase on the ball to pick it up in the engagement. But is still hands on and trying to get that purchase. I pinged for hands in ruck (several times). Chat in bar after being he didn't understand what I was looking for. Answer - a cleaner pick up. Fair or harsh?

 

[Dickie E]

he must have been very strong. I don't think I've ever seen a player without a good grasp on the ball (or a good grasp on something) be able to survive a cleanout.

Based on the OP, I expect I would have allowed him to continue to play for the ball as long as he kept in contact.

 

[Thunderhorse1986]

he must have been very strong. I don't think I've ever seen a player without a good grasp on the ball (or a good grasp on something) be able to survive a cleanout.

Based on the OP, I expect I would have allowed him to continue to play for the ball as long as he kept in contact.

I think there is a middle ground - the oft maligned "manage it". If the jackler is not clearly clamped on the ball or has not already won it, then you can tell him to release; I would try not to penalise him - a clear shout of "white, 7, release" should be enough - as it is not a clear cut penalty unless he keeps slowing it down with hands after you've told him to leave it.

 

[Rich_NL]

The advice I got at the beginning of this season was that the jackler has to get the ball off the ground before defenders can form a ruck - if he has a good grip and the BC isn't holding on then the act of closing should lift the ball and the turnover is good.

If I've pinged someone twice for the same thing, I usually have a word with them in the game - they often aren't aware of some law nuance or are mistaken, and in a case like this it's a good way to explain what you're looking for.

 

[beckett50]

If he was there first and making a positive effort to win the ball - which by your description, he was - I would have allowed him leeway to secure it.

He beat the defender and, as you say, was supporting his weight.

Let the game breathe )

 

[Pinky]

For me the jackler does not have to lift the ball - if he does it is often a turnover, but if he does not (and I don't think he has to let go) then assuming the original ball carrier is not holding on then it is a failed ruck with scrum to side going forward, probably not the jackler's side, but I would not be penalising him if he had hands on before the ruck and stayed on his feet.

 

[Zebra1922]

This happened a couple of times in my game this weekend as well. Jackler with a hand on the ball, supporting own body weight, but not in a position to lift the ball, only pin it against the tackled player. Bit of a stalemate cured by either blowing for unplayable in the ruck or calling for jackler to release. Only if I'd called for a release and they ignored me would I penalise, but it doesn't look of feel right to have the ball effectively pinned and not going anywhere even though the jackler is technically still legally competing.

 

[Flish]

This happened a couple of times in my game this weekend as well. Jackler with a hand on the ball, supporting own body weight, but not in a position to lift the ball, only pin it against the tackled player. Bit of a stalemate cured by either blowing for unplayable in the ruck or calling for jackler to release. Only if I'd called for a release and they ignored me would I penalise, but it doesn't look of feel right to have the ball effectively pinned and not going anywhere even though the jackler is technically still legally competing.

Even though holding it in and winning the penalty is the expected norm for Jacklers now it seems (done it myself as a player), most of the time the tackled player is offending to be fair, but I've seen it where he's lying there hands off and the tackler just holds it in, almost forgetting that actually winning possession is an option!

 

[Phil E]

From the description in the OP it sounds to me like the Jackler is trying to win a penalty for holding on.

I wouldn't give the holding on penalty unless the Jackler is actively trying to lift the ball, but nor would I penalise him. If he has hands in contact with the ball when the ruck forms he is entitled to continue to play the ball, but if he loses contact with the ball that's his chance gone.

Don't blow unless you have to.

 

[didds]

myth time I suspect!

* jackler arrives as first player
* jackler gets hands on ball
* tackled player HAS released it
* jackler doesn't yet manage to lift it
* opponent makes contact with jackler over the ball

Isn't that now jackler release the ball as its not clear of the floor?

didds

 

[Phil E]

myth time I suspect!

* jackler arrives as first player
* jackler gets hands on ball
* tackled player HAS released it
* jackler doesn't yet manage to lift it
* opponent makes contact with jackler over the ball

Isn't that now jackler release the ball as its not clear of the floor?

didds

There is no mention in law of the Jackler having to release the ball if its not clear of the floor.

[LAWS]Law 15.11
Once a ruck has formed, no player may handle the ball unless they were able to get their hands on the ball before the ruck formed and stay on their feet.[/LAWS]

 

[Guyseep]

I had a similar situation, where the jackler would go in for the steal but would instantly scream "he's not releasing". He would do this the very second he touched the ball.

I didn't call the penalty and instead had a chat with the jackler and his captain. I told him "You have to make an effort to actually steal the ball, not just play for the penalty."

The next few times he went in for the steal I would let it breath and as long as he maintained contact with the ball, he would either win it or get the penalty. I basically allowed it to be a true contest.

 

[ChrisR]

I had a similar situation, where the jackler would go in for the steal but would instantly scream "he's not releasing". He would do this the very second he touched the ball.

I didn't call the penalty and instead had a chat with the jackler and his captain. I told him "You have to make an effort to actually steal the ball, not just play for the penalty."

The next few times he went in for the steal I would let it breath and as long as he maintained contact with the ball, he would either win it or get the penalty. I basically allowed it to be a true contest.

Did you inform him of this:

[LAWS]UNFAIR PLAY
7. A player must not:
c. Do anything that may lead the match officials to consider that an opponent has committed an infringement.
Sanction: Penalty.
[/LAWS]

 

[WoodyOne]

Great responses. And helpful. I think I was probably being a little harsh given Phil E's law citation of 15.11. And I will look out for jacklers who are looking for the penalty. Thanks everyone.

 

[Rich_NL]

There is no mention in law of the Jackler having to release the ball if its not clear of the floor.

[LAWS]Law 15.11
Once a ruck has formed, no player may handle the ball unless they were able to get their hands on the ball before the ruck formed and stay on their feet.[/LAWS]

Law trials for this season, Phil:

"[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Law 16: Amended Ruck Law[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]A ruck commences when at least one player is on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground (tackled player, tackler). At this point the offside line is created. A player on their feet may use their hands to pick up the ball as long as this is immediate. As soon as an opposition player arrives no hands can be used.[/FONT]"

But the 2018 law book doesn't have the law trials...

 

[crossref]

SARU have published a version of the 2018 book , with the trials .. it's available on the SA Referees website

 

[Phil E]

Law trials for this season, Phil:

"[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Law 16: Amended Ruck Law[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]A ruck commences when at least one player is on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground (tackled player, tackler). At this point the offside line is created. A player on their feet may use their hands to pick up the ball as long as this is immediate. As soon as an opposition player arrives no hands can be used.[/FONT]"

What the last sentence means is that you can't play the ball after a ruck has formed (one man or otherwise). If you had your hands on the ball previously you can still continue to play it. This is not a change. The change in this particular trial was the one man ruck and offside lines.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I'd like to see the player trying to win the ball (pick it up) not the PK ("hold" and keep it there).

If there is no evidence of the tackle player holding on I'm not pingging him.

If there is no evidence of the jacking player trying to lift the ball. I may well susspect he's looking for a gotcha PK. He might not be happy with my call.

If I see the jackiing player trying to lift the ball. He may well get the PK if it does look lke the tackled player is not allowing him the ball.

If It's just a case of the ball is stuck then Scrum.

But give it a little time to breath.

 

[Rich_NL]

The second last sentence is the more interesting: [FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player on their feet may use their hands to pick up the ball as long as this is immediate. [/FONT]I don't read that as no change from "you can keep trying to pick it up as long as you were there first", at all.
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]
[/FONT]I can recheck with my society, but that was the advice I heard. ISTR a youtube clip too, but I'm really not sure about that.

 

[Phil E]

The second last sentence is the more interesting: [FONT=fs_blakeregular]A player on their feet may use their hands to pick up the ball as long as this is immediate. [/FONT]I don't read that as no change from "you can keep trying to pick it up as long as you were there first", at all.
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]
[/FONT]I can recheck with my society, but that was the advice I heard. ISTR a youtube clip too, but I'm really not sure about that.

That may well be the case where you are. In RFU land it was explained to us by an RFU representative and a Premiership Referee that you could could still play the ball after the ruck formed if you had your hands on it previously and didn't lose contact.