Kaplan misses out.... again

[chief]

It appears the ref who ranked by many as the best in the business, Mr Kaplan has missed out on the Currie Cup finals. Jonker and Lawrence will ref the semi's. While Joubert has been handed the final.

He also missed out on semi appointments and final appointments in the S14. What's going on. It's strange that SARU don't rank him as number 1 yet the IRB does.

 

[Mat 04]

Maybe because he is shit? lol I much prefer Joubert and Lawrence. Kappy is such a misserable character on the pitch.

 

[SimplySimon]

Surely it has to come down to the best ref, and not whether you smile or not?:rc:

 

[Mat 04]

He isn't the best ref in my opinion though. He has been past it a long time I feel.

 

[Dixie]

He needs to dye his grey patch.

 

[Adam]

Or maybe the SARU have decided that as he gets prestigious matches at international level these finals would be a better development tool for other SA referees?

 

[OB..]

It's strange that SARU don't rank him as number 1 yet the IRB does.

Is there an official ranking list? The IRB Panel listing simply has them in alphabetical order.

 

[Reindeer Flotilla]

Kaplan is no better than the fourth-best ref in SA—his game appears to have slipped over the past season or so. I'd rank Lawrence, Joubert, and Jonker above him in no particular order.

 

[Drift]

Kaplan is no better than the fourth-best ref in SA—his game appears to have slipped over the past season or so. I'd rank Lawrence, Joubert, and Jonker above him in no particular order.

He's better than Jonker. But I agree that Joubert and Lawrence are better.

Also why not give the younger guys the development opportunities and experience of reffing those important games?
I reckon it's probably time for Kaplan to maybe think about retiring, he has been great but he is starting to slip IMO

 

[Ian_Cook]

It appears the ref who ranked by many as the best in the business, Mr Kaplan has missed out on the Currie Cup finals. Jonker and Lawrence will ref the semi's. While Joubert has been handed the final.

He also missed out on semi appointments and final appointments in the S14. What's going on. It's strange that SARU don't rank him as number 1 yet the IRB does.

You're just creating a beat-up chief. The best referee isn't always appointed to a final; it can depend on where they come from too, e.g., if its Auckland v Canterbury in the ITM Cup final, then even if he was No. 1 ranked, Vinnie Munro would not be the referee under any circumstances, no matter how good he is. Vinnie is a Canterbury man.

Also, Kaplan has done several CC finals, and Joubert is on the rise, so he's about due anyway.

IMO you are just trying to make something out of nothing. :norc:

 

[chief]

Ian wrong again. Sorry. Joubert is from Natal, obviously where the Sharks are from. Who are in the final. Wrong.

Is it a beat up- no. He missed out on S14, far from a beat up Ian.

In the CC it was said it was based on merit. Same with S14. So sorry Ian. Wrong :norc: to you mate

 

[Simon Thomas]

Is there an official ranking list? The IRB Panel listing simply has them in alphabetical order.

Yes - there are ranking lists at all these levels based on match observer assessments and match stats (i know that via our IRB Match Observer). As to if they are publically available, I have my doubts.

The RFU Panel has a ranking list, as do we at L5 in South West Group based on objective performance measures.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Ian wrong again. Sorry. Joubert is from Natal, obviously where the Sharks are from. Who are in the final. Wrong.

Is it a beat up- no. He missed out on S14, far from a beat up Ian.

In the CC it was said it was based on merit. Same with S14. So sorry Ian. Wrong :norc: to you mate

I'm not wrong chief. They may have merit based referee appointments in SA, but it does not necessarily mean that the top ranked referee is automatically appointed to any given match, final or not, it simply does not work that way. Appointments to major matches can depend on a number of factors, not all of which are privvy to the public. In at least one case I know of, at elite level, the final decision was made by the toss of a coin!!!!

Remember, only ONE referee can be appointed to be the match referee. I could use your argument to say that ANY referee who wasn't appointed must be "on the slide" Mark Lawrence, Marius Jonker.

Just to set the record straight... Currie Cup Final Referees

2006 -
SF1 - JC Fortuin (a case in point. No way was this man a Top-3 SA ref in 2006!!!!)
SF2 - Marius Jonker
FIN - Jon Kaplan

2007 -
SF1 - Jon Kaplan
SF2 - Marius Jonker
FIN - Mark Lawrence

2008 -
SF1 - Mark Lawrence
SF2 - Craig Joubert
FIN - Jon Kaplan

2009 -
SF1 - Marius Jonker
SF2 - Mark Lawrence
FIN - Jon Kaplan

2010 -
SF1 - Marius Jonker
SF2 - Mark Lawrence
FIN - Craig Joubert

That looks like a fairly even distribution of appointments to me, BUT
Gee whiz!!!!!.....Mark Lawrence hasn't had a final since 2007; he must REALLY have fallen out of favour aye??!!! :biggrin:

As said, IMO your OP is nothing more than a beat-up; its conclusions flawed.

 

[L'irlandais]

Yes - there are ranking lists at all these levels based on match observer assessments and match stats (i know that via our IRB Match Observer). As to if they are publically available, I have my doubts...

Hello ST,
Nothing available on the IRB website anyway. I am not convinced that a World Ranking system for referees would be useful. What criteria should be used for such a table? How might the differences of interpertation NH/SH, be taken into account?

For what it's worth, the ERC do have a table of the Top 10 appearances in European competitions.
What does that really tell us about how good each referee actually is?

 

[Simon Thomas]

Watch "L'irl" - I was being diplomatic.

The ranking lists are for internal IRB Match Official Management use only, are based on global match metrics, and are used to assist in development, match appointments and assigning the guys & gals to Referee, AR, Match Observer and Referee Coach assignments and the tiered IRB panels - of which Bryan will know a lot more about than I do.

 

[OB..]

South Africa does publish a merit based list
http://www.sareferees.co.za/sarefs/panel/

However that one is nearly a year old, and it must surely be flexible.

 

[chief]

I'm not wrong chief. They may have merit based referee appointments in SA, but it does not necessarily mean that the top ranked referee is automatically appointed to any given match, final or not, it simply does not work that way. Appointments to major matches can depend on a number of factors, not all of which are privvy to the public. In at least one case I know of, at elite level, the final decision was made by the toss of a coin!!!!

Remember, only ONE referee can be appointed to be the match referee. I could use your argument to say that ANY referee who wasn't appointed must be "on the slide" Mark Lawrence, Marius Jonker.

Just to set the record straight... Currie Cup Final Referees

2006 -
SF1 - JC Fortuin (a case in point. No way was this man a Top-3 SA ref in 2006!!!!)
SF2 - Marius Jonker
FIN - Jon Kaplan

2007 -
SF1 - Jon Kaplan
SF2 - Marius Jonker
FIN - Mark Lawrence

2008 -
SF1 - Mark Lawrence
SF2 - Craig Joubert
FIN - Jon Kaplan

2009 -
SF1 - Marius Jonker
SF2 - Mark Lawrence
FIN - Jon Kaplan

2010 -
SF1 - Marius Jonker
SF2 - Mark Lawrence
FIN - Craig Joubert

That looks like a fairly even distribution of appointments to me, BUT
Gee whiz!!!!!.....Mark Lawrence hasn't had a final since 2007; he must REALLY have fallen out of favour aye??!!! :biggrin:

As said, IMO your OP is nothing more than a beat-up; its conclusions flawed.

Your sounding like a politician, with pointless stats and dribble. The stats provide the story I think. Kaplan's been one of the best refs in the world, I'm a big fan of him. Those stats have helped me.

SA Ranks there refs, Joubert was ranked 4th I believe, with Jonker and Lawrence respectively ahead of Joubert. This year Joubert's ascension has been evident, by receiving the S14 Final, and now the CC final.

In 06 Lawrence wasn't even on the International Panel. Who else were they to give it to. Joubert was just coming through.

Keep feeding stats Ian, but those stats just showed that the refs selected were the top 3 refs that Andre Watson ranked at the time.

 

[Davet]

I always found Kaplan to be somewhat petty minded, and not able to let a game flow. Then, say 2 or 3 years ago he seemed to improve and became an extremely good ref - it may simply be that he is now seen as past his best... or it may simply be that it's some other poor bu99er's turn in the barrel...

 

[Ian_Cook]

Your sounding like a politician, with pointless stats and dribble.

Stats are never pointless if you are smart enough to know how to interpret them

The stats provide the story I think. Kaplan's been one of the best refs in the world, I'm a big fan of him. Those stats have helped me.

I thought you just said they were pointless

SA Ranks there refs, Joubert was ranked 4th I believe, with Jonker and Lawrence respectively ahead of Joubert. This year Joubert's ascension has been evident, by receiving the S14 Final, and now the CC final.

But you weren't saying that earlier, you were inferring a lack of form on Kaplan's part.

In 06 Lawrence wasn't even on the International Panel. Who else were they to give it to. Joubert was just coming through.

For your information, you don't have to be on the international panel to be given a domestic final. Mark Lawrence wasn't on the international panel in 2006 because he was not available due to personal commitments. Fortuin wasn't either, so either of them could have got it.

Keep feeding stats Ian, but those stats just showed that the refs selected were the top 3 refs that Andre Watson ranked at the time.

How do you know that? Do you have the SAReferees rankings it the time? Of course you don't, you are just guessing, as you are guessing the reasons for Kaplan's non appointment.

You might be able to get away with guesswork at Green and Gold Rugby, but not here old chap!