[Law] Kick hits own player - offence?)

Paule23


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Scenario is say Blue 10 kicks the ball after ruck, hits blue 8 who is 2 metres ahead of Blue 10, rebounds to blue 10 who runs past standing Red players (who told me they were waiting for me to blow offside) and score a try.

Is there any offence here? Blue 8 was in front of the ball player, but if the ball just hits him and goes backwards to be recovered by blue, is this offside? Accidental or deliberate (assuming Blue 10 actively tries to catch the ball)? Any other offence?
 

L'irlandais

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Isn't it simply?
[LAWS]11.6 Accidental offside
(a)When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.[/LAWS]

Was Blue8 onside at the ruck? Was the ball passed back deep to Blue10?
 
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CrouchTPEngage


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From how you described it, I would have blown for accidental offside. Certainly I would not have allowed a try. It sounded accidental although it would be interesting to see if the 10 metre law applied.
 

Dickie E


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In the OP I would certainly blow for accidental offside.

However, for the sake of discussion: has Blue gained an advantage? Blue #10 started with the ball and ends up with the ball in the same location. Where's the advantage?
 

Pegleg

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I'd say Accidental offside. Technically the 10 mtr law would apply I guess. But common sense says accidental. I'd say advantage has been gained as had the ball not rebounded the play would have been significantly different.
 

Ciaran Trainor


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one of the easiest calls to make in the game,
Peep Accidental offside lads, scrum Red
 

chbg


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However, for the sake of discussion: has Blue gained an advantage? Blue #10 started with the ball and ends up with the ball in the same location. Where's the advantage?

You're forgetting that Blue #10 has kicked possession of the ball away - advantage from that is regaining possesion of the ball by virtue of it hitting an offside player of his own side.
 

Paule23


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You're forgetting that Blue #10 has kicked possession of the ball away - advantage from that is regaining possesion of the ball by virtue of it hitting an offside player of his own side.

But is the player offside? Yes he is in front of the ball, but once the ball has been passed away from a ruck we are in open play, this is where I get a little confused.
 

TigerCraig


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But is the player offside? Yes he is in front of the ball, but once the ball has been passed away from a ruck we are in open play, this is where I get a little confused.

Blue 8 is offside - he is in front of the ball - which is not in and of itself an offence

Ball strikes him after last being played by a team mate behind him, but he had no chance to avoid it - Law 11.6 (a) applies

Question then is did Blue gain an advantage - clearly yes

So, stop play and then restart in terms of Law 11.6 (a) "a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball."
 

Dickie E


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You're forgetting that Blue #10 has kicked possession of the ball away - advantage from that is regaining possesion of the ball by virtue of it hitting an offside player of his own side.

I haven't forgotten that.

Blue #10 made a decision that kicking the ball was more advantageous than holding onto the ball. This plan was thwarted because the ball ended up back where he didn't want it - in his hands. How is that an advantage?

PS: I only offer this as an intellectual exercise. Those that bemoan discussing law minutiae are encouraged to move on - nothing for you here.
 
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chbg


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But is the player offside? Yes he is in front of the ball, but once the ball has been passed away from a ruck we are in open play, this is where I get a little confused.

Law 11 Definitions.
 

Rich_NL

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I haven't forgotten that.

Blue #10 made a decision that kicking the ball was more advantageous than holding onto the ball. This plan was thwarted because the ball ended up back where he didn't want it - in his hands. How is that an advantage?

PS: I only offer this as an intellectual exercise. Those that bemoan discussing law minutiae are encouraged to move on - nothing for you here.

Eh? But... it's blue who's (accidentally) offended here. So you should be playing advantage to red, in which case blue keeping/regaining possession and scoring a try is a pretty big advantage.
 

didds

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In the OP I would certainly blow for accidental offside.

However, for the sake of discussion: has Blue gained an advantage? Blue #10 started with the ball and ends up with the ball in the same location. Where's the advantage?

surelky the advantage is that he gets the ball and not the opposition?

didds
 

didds

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Its clearly and obviously accidental offside (from the OP description).

no 10 metre law - the opposition didn;t catch it.

scrum down, oppo ball.

didds
 

Phil E


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But is the player offside? Yes he is in front of the ball, but once the ball has been passed away from a ruck we are in open play, this is where I get a little confused.

Yes he is definitely offside, and he took part in the game, so he is liable to be penalised. You just need to decide if it's accidental or not. Could he have avoided being hit by the ball? If not it's accidental offside.

[LAWS]In general play a player is offside if the player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball, or in front of a team-mate who last played the ball.
Offside means that a player is temporarily out of the game. Such players are liable to be penalised if they take part in the game.[/LAWS]
 

Paule23


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OK, sounds like accidental offside. There was o way he could have avoided the ball hitting him, he was only 2 metres from the kicking player. Thanks for the input guys, a lesson learnt. I know it might seem obvious in hindsight but at the time I couldn't get my head round what was wrong and why he was offside just because he was in front of the ball.
 

Taff


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But is the player offside? Yes he is in front of the ball, but once the ball has been passed away from a ruck we are in open play, this is where I get a little confused.
No 8 wasn't offside at the ruck, but as you say the ruck was now over - so we are back in open play.

No 8 was offside in open play as he was in front of a teammate who "last played the ball". If the ball had sailed downfield, there wouldn't be an issue, but it hit Blue 10 ie accidental offside AND they gained an advantage - as the ball ricocheted back to their kicker.

Blow up. "Accidental offside gents. Scrum. Red put in". Nobody will complain.

Its clearly and obviously accidental offside (from the OP description). no 10 metre law - the opposition didn;t catch it.
Que? :chin:
 
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ChuckieB

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OK, sounds like accidental offside. There was o way he could have avoided the ball hitting him, he was only 2 metres from the kicking player. Thanks for the input guys, a lesson learnt. I know it might seem obvious in hindsight but at the time I couldn't get my head round what was wrong and why he was offside just because he was in front of the ball.

he was offside entirely for the fact he was in front of the player who played the ball.

The one I had difficulty in getting my head around is when it was kicked against a player by the opposition and rebounded to a member of his own team in front of him. It was the issue that he hadn't "played" the ball in the way I understood it in my mind

fortunately that incident was from an opposition player trying to kick the ball out of a ruck and so as an issue it has fallen away somewhat.
 

didds

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No 8 wasn't offside at the ruck, but as you say the ruck was now over - so we are back in open play.

No 8 was offside in open play as he was in front of a teammate who "last played the ball". If the ball had sailed downfield, there wouldn't be an issue, but it hit Blue 10 ie accidental offside AND they gained an advantage - as the ball ricocheted back to their kicker.

Blow up. "Accidental offside gents. Scrum. Red put in". Nobody will complain.


Que? :chin:

somebody claimed it cold have been a 10m law. it can;t have been - no oppo was likely to cartch it near the point he was hit.

Innit?

didds
 

Pegleg

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...no 10 metre law - the opposition didn't catch it...


Can you explain that bit?

11.4 OFFSIDE UNDER THE 10-METRE LAW
(a) When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead, the offside player is considered to
be taking part in the game if the player is in front of an imaginary line across the field which
is 10 metres from the opponent waiting to play the ball, or from where the ball lands or may
land.
The offside player must immediately move behind the imaginary 10-metre line or the
kicker if this is closer than 10 metres. While moving away, the player must not obstruct an
opponent or interfere with play.
Sanction: Penalty kick

No opponent needs to catch the ball for the 10 mtr law to apply.
 
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