Kicking the ball in a tackle?

[Ciaran Trainor]

Incident this week got me thinking.
Red kick long down the pitch an the chase is on.
Black fullback drops on ball, regains his feet and is immediately tackled by green chaser and brought to ground. Support from both teams arrive quickly, ruck is formed but momentum is with red who in the act of driving kick the ball forward out of ruck, probably accidentally but clear penalty.
What if this scenario had happened.
Black ball carrier tackled, tacler releases and as black places the ball on the ground, green support coming through gate steps over unopposed and kicks the ball forward when blacks hand is on the ball after placing it, play on?

 

[OB..]

Incident this week got me thinking.
Red kick long down the pitch an the chase is on.
Black fullback drops on ball, regains his feet and is immediately tackled by green chaser and brought to ground. Support from both teams arrive quickly, ruck is formed but momentum is with red who in the act of driving kick the ball forward out of ruck, probably accidentally but clear penalty.
What if this scenario had happened.
Black ball carrier tackled, tacler releases and as black places the ball on the ground, green support coming through gate steps over unopposed and kicks the ball forward when blacks hand is on the ball after placing it, play on?

[LAWS]15.14 [FONT=fs_blakeregular]Players may play the ball with their feet, provided they do so in a safe manner.[/FONT][/LAWS]
Would that constitute a "safe manner"? I suggest not.

 

[Taff]

... What if this scenario had happened. Black ball carrier tackled, tacler releases and as black places the ball on the ground, green support coming through gate steps over unopposed and kicks the ball forward when blacks hand is on the ball after placing it, play on?

I thought there was a specific law preventing a player kicking the ball if an opponent had his hands on it.

 

[SimonSmith]

I thought there was a specific law preventing a player kicking the ball if an opponent had his hands on it.

In the act of scoring a try

 

[Jolly Roger]

LAW 9 FOUL PLAY

11. Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others.

23. A player must not attempt to kick the ball from the hands of the ball-carrier.

Sanction: Penalty

 

[didds]

[LAWS]15.14 [FONT=fs_blakeregular]Players may play the ball with their feet, provided they do so in a safe manner.[/FONT][/LAWS]
Would that constitute a "safe manner"? I suggest not.

Exactly. However - here's some generalised thoughts..

I am generally speaking an advocate of tackled players keeping a hand on the ball to prevent some clcod hopping 2nd row (TEAMMATE!) from accidentally hoofing the ball to the oppo.,

In a perfect world of course having been tackled the tackled player should have released the ball. In which case his hand would not have been on it when the opposition player then kicked it. Dangerous play "overrules" everything of course - but its only (potentially etc) dangerous play because the tackled player himself broke the laws in the first place by not releasing when tackled.

Of course - remove the kick from the scenario and when would the ball handling tackled player ever get penalised? I'd suggest "never" ... which is also why I have no worries in coaching my players to keep a hand on the ball when tackled to prevent the clodhopper from stuffing the presentation up. (Obvs I also coach to release if the oppo get hands on etc etc etc!)

And - PK if not release if oppo put hands on . So is putting a boot on it then not the same?

All moot points.

didds

 

[didds]

LAW 9 FOUL PLAY

11. Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others.

23. A player must not attempt to kick the ball from the hands of the ball-carrier.

Sanction: Penalty

again - exactly.

The moot point being this is post tackle. the "ball carrier" should not be a "ball carrier". He SHOULD technically have released the ball.

didds

 

[Rich_NL]

If it was a safe tap further - play on, have a word later. If dangerous and worth stopping the game for, I'd probably give the penalty to green for black not releasing...

However, thinking it over in off-pitch calm, this would probably be a law error, as foul(/dangerous) play trumps the (almost certainly not cynical) not releasing. Correct?

 

[Phil E]

Red kick long down the pitch an the chase is on.
Black fullback drops on ball,
is immediately tackled by green chaser

Three teams?

 

[Dickie E]

[LAWS]15.14 [FONT=fs_blakeregular]Players may play the ball with their feet, provided they do so in a safe manner.[/FONT][/LAWS]
Would that constitute a "safe manner"? I suggest not.

Law 15 is only if a ruck has formed.

 

[didds]

If it was a safe tap further - play on, have a word later. If dangerous and worth stopping the game for, I'd probably give the penalty to green for black not releasing...

However, thinking it over in off-pitch calm, this would probably be a law error, as foul(/dangerous) play trumps the (almost certainly not cynical) not releasing. Correct?

that's how id read it yes. Especially given with the absence of any oppo attempting to play the ball (pick it up, kick it, etc) the tackled player would never ever get pinged anyway.

didds

 

[didds]

I suppose given the oppo kicked it, the hand on the ball still wasn't material ie it didn't stop the oppo kicking it as they wanted ie forwards etc. So maybe no PK against the tackled player pending.

didds

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

Well spotted Phil E, visitors were red and green!
I tend to agree, if it was not dangerous i.e. The kick was to dislodge the ball, and played only the ball, it would be play on

 

[Taff]

... I tend to agree, if it was not dangerous i.e. The kick was to dislodge the ball, and played only the ball, it would be play on

I think most people would struggle to kick a held ball without kicking the hand as well. :chin:

I just think a blanket "You can't kick a ball from the hands" is far easier for everyone, and is backed up by the lawbook if somebody does get arsey.

 

[Jolly Roger]

It all depends on the situation at the time and how it looks.
If there are only three players involved catcher / tackled player, tackler, and chasing attacker and no one else near; then to penalise a player who has run 50m to support the attacking takler and taps the ball forward with the toe of their boot and touch down over the try line would be very difficult to defend.
If there are other players in the vicinity and an arriving player swings a boot at ball and hand then much easier to call dangerous play.

 

[crossref]

If the ball is kicked from someone hands I would never play on. I would give a PK one way or the other
Ideally you'd blow the whistle just before and PK the guy on the ground for not releasing

 

[ChrisR]

If the ball is kicked from someone hands I would never play on. I would give a PK one way or the other
Ideally you'd blow the whistle just before and PK the guy on the ground for not releasing

Then you'd have a busy whistle at a lot of different levels. Placing the ball and keeping a hand on it is common practice.

 

[didds]

If the ball is kicked from someone hands I would never play on. I would give a PK one way or the other
Ideally you'd blow the whistle just before and PK the guy on the ground for not releasing

The guy that was about to tap the ball forward a metre to fall on it to score a try (Jolly Roger's example above) wold be delighted I am sure.

I suppose you could award a PT.

didds

- - - Updated - - -

Then you'd have a busy whistle at a lot of different levels. Placing the ball and keeping a hand on it is common practice.

... as per my early post on this matter wrt clodhopping 2nd rows.

didds

 

[Camquin]

Common practice, but technically illegal.
You should release, and if the ball rolls away the opposition should be permitted to pounce.

Also players stopping a ball shooting out of a ruck by sticking a hand down.