Knock on or penalty?

[Balones]

After watching this in a game I wondered what other refs' opinions were on this scenario.

Black kick the ball.
Blue catcher knocks on and the ball goes to ground. The blue player immediately falls on the ball and gathers it. He doesn't try to get up with the ball basically because a black player following up tries to take the ball off the blue player.

Would you award a scrum for the knock-on or a penalty for not releasing?

 

[didds]

its black scrum advantage from the KO.

Then black PK advantage for not releasing.

didds

 

[Balones]

There was no time to apply an advantage from the knock on.
The player who knocked on had the ball back in his grasp in the time it takes to fall to the ground which was before the ref could open his mouth. Is this sufficient time?

 

[Simon Thomas]

As Didds says.

There is always time to get the arm out and call Avantage, then up goes the arm as you blow the PK whistle.

all about selling the decision and referee protection.

 

[Phil E]

Interesting question.
My immediate thought was that I would blow for the knock on as soon as the knocker-onner dived on the ball, as this would have indicated to me that no advantage was likely to come.

 

[Simon Thomas]

In which case we would have an interesting post match de-brief Phil

Don't be too quick to blow, let it run and see if he does release of not.

 

[didds]

just because there is no time to play advantage doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

what would a blue knock on immediately followed by a black knock on end ujp with?

Scrum to black for blue knock on, as advantage never accrued, or
Scrum to blue for black knock on because there wasn't any time to play advantage after the blue KO?

didds

 

[ChrisR]

Always play the first KO

- - - Updated - - -

Always play the first KO

 

[Browner]

I play advantage from the KnO, and then would penalise the not releasing, for two reasons :

1) had he released the ball then black might have been able to pass to a teammate to gain a more significant advantage.

Imagine an issolated fullback inside his own 22 KnO, and then gathers on the ground and holds on for dear life with x5 opposition in close proximity about to gain possession and score undefended by blue teammates ! ( I'd even consider YC & PT!)

2. Law 8.5(a) now expects the 'most advantageous' decision to be given
[LAWS][FONT=fs_blakeregular]8.5[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular] More than one infringement([/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]a)

When there is more than one infringement by the same team:


[/FONT]

• If advantage cannot be played or does not accrue to the second offence, the referee applies the appropriate sanction to the offence which is most advantageous to the non-offending team.

[/LAWS]

In most cases a PK is more advantageous than a scrum nearby.

 

[Balones]

The key to this seems to be the fact that the player that knocked on went to ground to gather the ball. If he had remained on his feet and gathered the ball then no advantage could be applied could it?
In both scenarios the player knocking on gathered the ball and prevented the opposition getting the ball. It seems a little strange to me that one would result in a scrum and the other in a penalty (or even YC?)
Just a question - why would you play advantage when he gathers the ball by going to ground and not when he gathers the ball when standing up? In both scenarios he has prevented quick access to the ball by the opposition.

 

[Balones]

As Didds says.

There is always time to get the arm out and call Avantage, then up goes the arm as you blow the PK whistle.

all about selling the decision and referee protection.

Is there more referee protection in awarding a penalty than a scrum?

 

[Blackberry]

What is meant by "referee protection"?

 

[matty1194]

.....

 

[matty1194]

After watching this in a game I wondered what other refs' opinions were on this scenario.

Black kick the ball.
Blue catcher knocks on and the ball goes to ground. The blue player immediately falls on the ball and gathers it. He doesn't try to get up with the ball basically because a black player following up tries to take the ball off the blue player.
Would you award a scrum for the knock-on or a penalty for not releasing?

For me I am awarding a PK to Black for the no release. Blue being positive trying to get the game moving. Never blow to early, always time for something to happen!!


Heres one for you all, if the player who had knocked on (BLACK) had regathered whilst stood up as per Balones scenario and the arriving opposition player (BLUE) ripped the ball out of his arms because he soft held it expecting the knock on to be called, who would play on??

 

[Balones]

Matty said -
Heres one for you all, if the player who had knocked on (BLACK) had regathered whilst stood up as per Balones scenario and the arriving opposition player (BLUE) ripped the ball out of his arms because he soft held it expecting the knock on to be called, who would play on??[/QUOTE]

You beat me to my next question.
I was going to ask it in conjunction with allowing play to continue if the ball had been taken off the player on the floor as well.
What is the difference?

 

[OB..]

If a player collects the ball when on his feet, he has not committed a second offence (pace Chopper15 who thought it should be considered offside!).

If he falls on the ball and refuses to release it, he has committed a penalty offence.

Ia a player knocks on in his own in-goal and dives on the ball to ground it, would you want to award a penalty try?

 

[Simon Thomas]

Is there more referee protection in awarding a penalty than a scrum?

The protection is following the right escalation and decision process, ending. Up at the right decision, playing out the options, and not rushing an immediate call would be appropriate in the scenario outlined in OP.

As I said initially do not rush it, that suggestion now supported by Matty.

 

[matty1194]

If a player collects the ball when on his feet, he has not committed a second offence (pace Chopper15 who thought it should be considered offside!). If he falls on the ball and refuses to release it, he has committed a penalty offence.

OB, maybe some slight confusion in the reading of the post.

The initial chat and question in the OP was about a player knocking on the ball (and regathering on the floor) and in the second scenario posted by Balones this time staying on his feet and then picking up the ball, next arriving player rips ball and plays on................... his only offense is being weak in his carry and having the ball ripped out by a quick thinking opposition player who knows advantage is being played by the referee and that the whistle has not gone and who is keen to get the game flowing :wink:


Following other infringements were a PK or FK has been awarded we often see the 9 or other player close by rip the ball and go quick tap in an attempt to speed up the play, for me this scenario is no different and should be play on.

Positive rugby in my eyes.

 

[Simon Thomas]

What is meant by "referee protection"?

Clear & Obvious decisions in a consistent and predictable process, full supported by evidence of what happened.

Not "rabbits out of a hat".

 

[menace]

Clear & Obvious decisions in a consistent and predictable process, full supported by evidence of what happened.

Not "rabbits out of a hat".

But still leaves him the option to 'pull a hare out of his @ss':biggrin: