[Law] Knock-on question

[Lewis Tough]

Hi guys,

This happened in my game today, how far up the leg does a kick become a knock-on if the ball touches it? I thought it was only the foot, but I may be wrong.

Thanks,

Lewis

 

[Pegleg]

If the player regathers the ball there is no knock on of the ball hits his foot.


DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward,
or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits
the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another
player before the original player can catch it.

So if the player dropped the ball on to his leg and re-caught it there is no knock on. He can't turn a knock on into a kick.

OR


The definition of a kick is:

Kick: A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel,
from the toe to the knee but not including the knee

So if you mean the player tried to kick the ball then the second definition says what is acceptable.

The debate here is then is a failed attempt at a kick a knock on. That's a whole different can of worms.

 

[ChrisR]

From 2016 Laws definitions:

Kick: A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel,
from the toe to the knee but not including the knee; a kick must move the ball a visible
distance out of the hand, or along the ground.

From Law 12 definitions:
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward,
or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits
the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another
player before the original player can catch it.

Note the parts in red.

So a kick is only foot to shin and a knock-on is only off the hand or arms.

In dispute are too separate scenarios:

A ball lost forward that is then struck by a player with his foot before it strikes the ground. Is that a kick? I would allow it but others here would not.

A ball deliberately bounced off the knee is, by definition, not a kick. But what is it? It isn't a knock-on but would you allow it? Where is it covered by law?

Sorry, Lewis, more questions than answers.

 

[crossref]

you guys are really confusing the question!

Hi guys,

This happened in my game today, how far up the leg does a kick become a knock-on if the ball touches it? I thought it was only the foot, but I may be wrong.
is

the answer is: it's only a knock on if it comes off the hand or arm.

 

[ChrisR]

OK CR, if it comes off his knee? What animal is that?

 

[crossref]

OK CR, if it comes off his knee? What animal is that?

Same as ball coming off his stomach or his backside -- there's no specific word of it. It's just a ball coming off a player.
the point is: it's not a knock on

 

[DocY]

if it comes off his knee? What animal is that?

By the letter of the law (and assuming this is something like a punt, but coming off a knee), isn't it a deliberate throw forward?

 

[crossref]

A ball lost forward that is then struck by a player with his foot before it strikes the ground. Is that a kick? I would allow it but others here would not.

It doesn't really matter whether you call it a kick or not, as it's lost forward, the question is whether hits the ground (or another player) before the original player can catch it. So

- if he loses it forward, gets a toe to it, (or a knee to it) and catches it again -- play on.
- if he loses it forward, gets a toe to it (or a knee to it) and it hits the ground or another player -- its a knock on

 

[DocY]

Same as ball coming off his stomach or his backside -- there's no specific word of it. It's just a ball coming off a player.
the point is: it's not a knock on

Didn't it used to be called a 'rebound'?

 

[The Fat]

A ball deliberately bounced off the knee is, by definition, not a kick. But what is it? It isn't a knock-on but would you allow it? Where is it covered by law?

The deliberate bouncing of the ball on the knee is usually seen at a quick tap. It is classed as an incorrectly taken tap kick and is covered in the following law;

21.3 How the penalty and free kicks are taken
(b)Bouncing the ball on the knee is not taking a kick.
Sanction: Any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throws in the ball.

 

[didds]

ISTR some official (?) interpretation that the ball bounced off a knee is supposed to be ruled a knock on as the ball has allegedlky been dropped forwards to make contact with the knee.

Ditto heel kicks with the ball dropped into a heel that propels the ball over the "kicker's" head towards the oppo's try line.

(No, I don;t believe either of them either)..


didds

 

[ChrisR]

TF, I'm talking about in general play where a player bounces the ball off his knee to pop it over a defender.

That, and the heel kick, isn't specifically defined in law. Waiting to be corrected.

 

[crossref]

The deliberate bouncing of the ball on the knee is usually seen at a quick tap. It is classed as an incorrectly taken tap kick and is covered in the following law;

21.3 How the penalty and free kicks are taken
(b)Bouncing the ball on the knee is not taking a kick.
Sanction: Any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throws in the ball.

yes, but just because something is not a kick, it doesn't mean it's a knock on.

In open play a player may head the ball forwards. He hasn't kicked it, but neither has he knocked it on. He's just headed it. Play on.

 

[OB..]

Didn't it used to be called a 'rebound'?

1949[LAWS]Rebound. A rebound occurs when the ball, after striking any part of a player except his hand, arm, or leg from the knee to the toe inclusive, travels in the direction of his opponents' dead ball line.[/LAWS]

 

[crossref]

ISTR some official (?) interpretation that the ball bounced off a knee is supposed to be ruled a knock on as the ball has allegedlky been dropped forwards to make contact with the knee.

I don't think there is an 'official' view is there, as this keeps coming up.

but seems that if a player executes a punt with his knee, then he hasn't kicked it [so he can't take a PK or FK that way, and can't put it into touch that way] but he hasn't knocked it on either -- play on.

 

[chbg]

I don't think there is an 'official' view is there, as this keeps coming up.

but seems that if a player executes a punt with his knee, then he hasn't kicked it [so he can't take a PK or FK that way, and can't put it into touch that way] but he hasn't knocked it on either -- play on.

Unless he throws the ball directly downwards or backwards from his hands on to his knee, then he has thrown it forward.

 

[RobLev]

I don't think there is an 'official' view is there, as this keeps coming up.

but seems that if a player executes a punt with his knee, then he hasn't kicked it [so he can't take a PK or FK that way, and can't put it into touch that way] but he hasn't knocked it on either -- play on.

The player presumably had the ball in his hand to start with? In the normal case, if he loses possession forward, and it comes off his knee or head or stomach or ... or ... and hits the ground before he can catch it, it's a knock-on.

If he intentionally knocks or throws the ball forward with his hand or arm then that is an intentional knock or throw forward irrespective of whether the ball hits the ground or another player before he catches it (Law 12.1(f)). So your player executing a punt with his knee would IMHO be liable to sanction by a PK under that Law.

 

[crossref]

So your player executing a punt with his knee would IMHO be liable to sanction by a PK under that Law.

Unless he throws the ball directly downwards or backwards from his hands on to his knee, then he has thrown it forward.

I understand your logic, but by that logic, he'd be equally liable for a PK when executing a punt with his foot

 

[chbg]

I understand your logic, but by that logic, he'd be equally liable for a PK when executing a punt with his foot

No - because he is allowed to kick it with his foot/shin. The knee is not included. But you know that.

If he goes to kick it, but misses completely, perhaps because tripping over / stubbing his toe, then the ball has been lost forward when it next hits the ground / another player.

 

[crossref]

Yes, he is allowed to kick it
He is equally allowed to knee it