Last game of a Youth Tournament... hmmm

[WombleRef]

Well, I've just got back from a Western Area Suffolk Schools competition - these teams go through to the county final. Interesting stuff. From the offset - the standard was very low - I ended up not worrying too much about expecting super amazing play and ended up coaching sides through the game while refereeing. Games were flowing despite the competition rules trying their best to prevent it (why kick off with a scrum??), everyone enjoyed it and good fun was had... until the last game.

The tournament started at 12:30pm, and this was the very last game at about 4:30pm. I was knackered and so was everyone else. It was 1st (yellow) v Last (blue). Yellow had a number of the nearest Level 5 side's 'A' team players whereas the last placed team had a set of inexperienced players who hadn't played together before.

Tried to keep the game flowing although it didn't help that in the 1st minute - 1 player got a whack to the head (very much not deliberate), and collapsed in a heap on the ground. Did a basic concussion test and told the teacher I wanted him off. She seemed grumpy at this but did what I asked. Then we go to a scrum where the forwards forget to come over, but from this Blue win possession, and nearly score but the player keeps running and ends up 'scoring' under the posts of the pitch opposite. Obviously I didn't allow it, but said well played and joked about him running off to Ipswich.

Then things turned nasty. Blue's 9 moans about being punched at a scrum and was crying.. said if I saw anything that I would have to act on it. Then when a blue player is on the ground injured, a yellow player comes over and swears obscenities in his ear which blue player. (Although perhaps I shouldn't - I said to both captains that I don't want to hear any swearing at all - especially not to injured players on the ground - go and talk to the players... which they did).

At half time I went over to both sides and emphasised it again in front of their teachers.

Second Half to Kick off we have to have a scrum - and I hear a blue player shout 'C***' at the top of his voice in the scrum. So I ping him. Then I catch the Yellow 9 going for a little afters with Blue 9 after a tackle and pinged him with a penalty. More swearing follows and they get subbed. 1 minute and a half to go - Yellow hooker takes the mickey over what I say about swearing at a scrum - he gets 'subbed' and both sides told in no uncertain terms that if this continued I would have to escalate... luckily it stops but...

I don't understand how a game at U14 development level can end up like that. I tried my best to manage a situation no one was expecting and the Head Coach of the U16s was watching and said I didn't do anything wrong. But I was getting pissed off (to the point of taking a second to myself and calming down) with both sides and had to try and manage them using more 'adult' management.

Is there anything you see I could have done differently?

 

[menace]

If it was me....

Obviously I didn't allow it, but said well played and joked about him running off to Ipswich.
1) don't joke with 14 yo that you don't know, their hormones don't allow them to have a sense of humour and be 'made fun of' when they know they screwed up. They don't like being embarrassed! He now thinks you're a major twat.

Then when a blue player is on the ground injured, a yellow player comes over and swears obscenities in his ear which blue player. (Although perhaps I shouldn't - I said to both captains that I don't want to hear any swearing at all - especially not to injured players on the ground - go and talk to the players... which they did).

2) easy - YC!! ( not sub, but a real YC)

At half time I went over to both sides and emphasised it again in front of their teachers.
3) now they really think you're a twat. I wouldn't give them a speech, they don't like preachers. Give the message to the teacher and let him deliver it...they hate them already.

Second Half to Kick off we have to have a scrum - and I hear a blue player shout 'C***' at the top of his voice in the scrum. So I ping him.

4) had you YC the previous swear this might not have happened...but if it did...:noyc::noyc::noyc:

More swearing follows and they get subbed.
5) WTF is this subbed BS....because of previous YC, this is now :norc:

1 minute and a half to go - Yellow hooker takes the mickey over what I say about swearing at a scrum - he gets 'subbed'
6) They've realised you're not that serious about it so it kept happening. This one would be carded for dissent. You choose the colour.

Just cause its development don't drop your standards of allowable behaviour, just cause they don't have the skill, they can still control their behaviour. You need to stamp on it, otherwise, like what happened you let them get away with it and you couldn't bring it back.

 

[WombleRef]

If it was me....

Obviously I didn't allow it, but said well played and joked about him running off to Ipswich.
1) don't joke with 14 yo that you don't know, their hormones don't allow them to have a sense of humour and be 'made fun of' when they know they screwed up. They don't like being embarrassed! He now thinks you're a major twat.

Then when a blue player is on the ground injured, a yellow player comes over and swears obscenities in his ear which blue player. (Although perhaps I shouldn't - I said to both captains that I don't want to hear any swearing at all - especially not to injured players on the ground - go and talk to the players... which they did).

2) easy - YC!! ( not sub, but a real YC)

At half time I went over to both sides and emphasised it again in front of their teachers.
3) now they really think you're a twat. I wouldn't give them a speech, they don't like preachers. Give the message to the teacher and let him deliver it...they hate them already.

Second Half to Kick off we have to have a scrum - and I hear a blue player shout 'C***' at the top of his voice in the scrum. So I ping him.

4) had you YC the previous swear this might not have happened...but if it did...:noyc::noyc::noyc:

More swearing follows and they get subbed.
5) WTF is this subbed BS....because of previous YC, this is now :norc:

1 minute and a half to go - Yellow hooker takes the mickey over what I say about swearing at a scrum - he gets 'subbed'
6) They've realised you're not that serious about it so it kept happening. This one would be carded for dissent. You choose the colour.

Just cause its development don't drop your standards of allowable behaviour, just cause they don't have the skill, they can still control their behaviour. You need to stamp on it, otherwise, like what happened you let them get away with it and you couldn't bring it back.

I disagree with me being a twat about joking - the players laughed when I was like it throughout the tournament, and actually I think helped them enjoy it a bit more. I prefer to have a rapport - especially when I have to coach a second row how to bind on and show both sides where to position themselves in a line out. And in fact, most club coaches tend to prefer it when I show a rapport with both sides. It sure as hell takes the edge of things usually.

In an adult match and a club youth match yes cards would have been shown - unfortunately, I was told by the organisers not to card and instead go to subs, and I agree - why stop another player who could use the development time on the sidelines from playing because someone was being a twat.

 

[menace]

Like I said "if it was me"...Its what i would have done. you dont need to be like me, so happy for you to ditch it if you don't agree with it.

I still think it all went wrong cause you didn't YC as you went too easy on them.. Part of 'development' is that they learn.... i still think they can learn what a YC means.

Ps there is a rapport, and then there is being a joker....the 2 are not the same thing.

 

[WombleRef]

Like I said "if it was me"...Its what i would have done. you dont need to be like me, so happy for you to ditch it if you don't agree with it.

I still think it all went wrong cause you didn't YC as you went too easy on them.. Part of 'development' is that they learn.... i still think they can learn what a YC means.

Ps there is a rapport, and then there is being a joker....the 2 are not the same thing.

I admit I was probably a bit to relaxed with some in terms of joking... which came from letting my guard down if anything because the standard was so poor.

I'm doing the U15 tournament with DaftMedic so it will be interesting to watch him and see how he approaches it.

 

[Daftmedic]

On WombleRef defence if we yellow a player under 16 a player from the other team walks as well.

 

[menace]

Imo - what a stupid rule for a 'tournament'. Yep - that certainly makes it harder and unfair on one innocent team. Either you work around the rule (eg he's subbed for the rest of this game not just 10 mins or use YC and while the oppo forced off they can interchange at will) or just accept that games will go to sh!t because you've lost one of your management tools.

Personally if it's worthy of a YC, it gets a YC....any flow on effect rules enforced by the event organisers are their problem. Let the teams jack up with the organisers about it if they feel it's unfair.

 

[WombleRef]

Imo - what a stupid rule for a 'tournament'. Yep - that certainly makes it harder and unfair on one innocent team. Either you work around the rule (eg he's subbed for the rest of this game not just 10 mins or use YC and while the oppo forced off they can interchange at will) or just accept that games will go to sh!t because you've lost one of your management tools.

Personally if it's worthy of a YC, it gets a YC....any flow on effect rules enforced by the event organisers are their problem. Let the teams jack up with the organisers about it if they feel it's unfair.

The 'rules' are pathetic to be honest:-

YEAR 9 BOYS (U14) Rules

For schools playing regularly through the local School Partnerships Series but without an established fixture list

Squad size & Rules

• Squad size 13 players maximum
• 10-a-side
• 5 Player Scrums – 3 front row, 2 second row (scrumhalf stay at tunnel)
• Half a full size Rugby pitch/ Size 4 Ball
• Hand-offs allowed
• No Kicking out-of hand or for touch – scrum restart (max 1.5M push)
• Kick-Offs and 22 drops replaced by scrum (not drop kick)
• 5 players in the line out. No ‘long’ or ‘quick’ throws.
• Rolling substitutions

Correct safety equipment to be worn in all games (mouth-guards & boot studs etc).

Just so you know - the Yellow Card thing is considered an instruction and not a rule

 

[SimonSmith]

I agree with Menace.

In a tournament it's easy to adopt a 'tournament' frame of mind and that your rapport carries from match to match. It doesn't. Each one is a start afresh.

Remember that if you start with a relaxed attitude, and it goes to rat shit, it's a ******* to regain control. Start tight, less chance of a derail and easier to get stern again. And the minute you even hint at tolerating bad behavior? Game over, man.

 

[crossref]

Wombleref I wonder if this is a question of boundaries. . I think you are forgetting what a ref is for, and what he isn't for.

1 don't routinely joke with the players. You don't want be their mate as this only makes things harder for yourself if the game subsequently gets tricky.
(also humour only really works amongst equals, if the powerful crack a joke, the powerless will normally make sure to laugh. But they don't actually like it)

2 don't be a coach. You are not the coach, you are the Ref. . (Of course deal with safety issues)

3 don't administer concussion tests. You are not the medic you are the Ref. In a schools tournament there would have been physio there. Let the medics deal with injuries and let the medics and coaches come to the the decision to take a player off. They almost always will (of course be prepared to over rule if it comes to it, but it very rarely does)

4 don't make up your own laws (no swearing). The referee job is just to enforce the laws we do have that us hard enough. As to why a 'no swearing' rule is not a good idea have you seen the 'jehovah' sketch in life of Brian?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIaORknS1Dk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

In summary.. You seem to have a finger in too many pies, doing a bit of everything. Could that be getting on everyones nerves? Just focus on being the Ref.

 

[Na Madrai]

Funnily enough, I refereed my first sevens tournament of the year, yesterday; have my second today.

This was a school's U16 tournament and played on a round robin basis, so meself and another Society referee did seven straight matches and the visiting teachers had to take it in terms on the third pitch as the third referee failed to show.

I agree with some of the comments above, a YC is a very specific tool in a referee's armoury and its use must not be nullified by the organisers - afterall, it is only two minutes on the bench. Throughout yesterday's tournament, there were just three used in twenty-one matches. On the other pitch, however, there was a clear tip tackle which my associate dealt with by instructing the teacher to substitute the player for the reminder of the match. Not too sure if I agree with this, I think a RC should have been given but t'was his decision.

Although a very small amount of levity can assist in managing a game, it is a very risky tactic and can very easily backfire*. Bad language in any youth game should be stamped on immediately IMHO, if they are aware that they are going to be punished simply for swearing - or, indeed, taking the Lord's name in vain on a Sunday - they will think twice before attempting more forceful responses.

A small amount of coaching, especially in the very early rounds and, of course, depending on the level of the tournament, I think is essential - many of the players will be playing in very unfamiliar positions and a bit of coaching will not be amiss especially in terms of safety. Yesterday's tournament required a lot of coaching, today's is far more serious and will require little or none.

Just my halfpenny worth.

NM

*Although a bit of levity can assist managing the match, I finished up doing the last match yesterday, my eighth! I am quiet fit but even I was beginning to feel it towards the end and it was obvious that all the players were in a far worse condtion. The tournament was held in school grounds and right towards the end of the match, with one team very dominant, a scrum was awarded.

As the players slowly gathered and sorted themselves out, a very attractive young lady appeared walking along side of the pitch. I had my back to her but she was brought to my attention by a comment from one of the players. Obviously, I walked around the scrum to check the bindings on the far side of the scrum which, by coincidence, brought her into my view, only to be made the subject of one of the most obscene comments I have ever heard, from one of the forwards!

The scrum, nines and the referee collapsed in gales of laughter and, when I could finally get my breath, several minutes later, I ended the match as no-one was in any condition to continue.

 

[TheBFG]

On WombleRef defence if we yellow a player under 16 a player from the other team walks as well.

Why? :chin:

 

[Browner]

The organisers are wanting a relaxed 'fun' development tourno, which typically attracts players more used to mouthing off!

Rugby is opening its doors to mass participation, ..... applause, .... But competition organisers don't manage pitch discipline we do.

Whenever I'm invited to such events I ask for confirmation of localised pitch sanctions ....if they are too restrictive I ask for them to be changed , or I decline the invite and tell them why.

If the organisers attempt to 'tie my management hands behind my back' when im there (because of my pre-enquiring its never happened yet) then i am prepared to walk away.

They can tweak game rules...koffs scrums etc , but not my refereeing.

 

[Browner]

NM..... Not everyone believes in there being a lord, so ditch that benchmark.

 

[crossref]

swearing -
- there's no law against swearing in itself
- if swearing is part of winding up the opposition, then the behaviour you need to stamp out is winding up the oppo. It's not the rude word in itself.
- if you unilaterally introduce a no swearing Law then you are - IMO - treading a dangerous path (as womblef found out) - it's essentially a bluff: if they call it and say another naughty word where you can hear you have put yourself on a path to issuing a RC for something that isn't really an offence, or ignoring it. either way you lose face.

coaching I simply disagree: IMO in junior rugby (U13 upwards) and especially a formal competition (ie a league or a tournament) the referee should not be coaching the players (of course it's different for u7s and of course in matters of safety, that prevails)

 

[Phil E]

swearing -
- there's no law against swearing in itself

It doesn't actually say "no swearing" you are correct, but it is covered by...........

The Playing Charter, which is incorporated in the Laws of the Game and inlcudes.............

[LAWS]RESPECT
Respect for team mates, opponents, match
officials and those involved in the Game is
paramount[/LAWS]

[LAWS]Law 10.4(m) Acts contrary to good sportsmanship.A player must not do anything that is against the
spirit of good sportsmanship in the playing enclosure.
Sanctionenalty kick[/LAWS]

 

[crossref]

Indeed, so penalise people for unsportsmanship by all means.

but wombleref seems to have ended up in a situation where all around him people all around were saying 'jehovah' and he was forcing them off the field for it...

hear a blue player shout 'C***' at the top of his voice in the scrum. So I ping him. [...] More swearing follows and they get subbed. 1 minute and a half to go - Yellow hooker takes the mickey over what I say about swearing at a scrum - he gets 'subbed' and both sides told in no uncertain terms that if this continued I would have to escalate...

 

[Daftmedic]

Why? :chin:

Because that's what we are told to do

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Ref: Penalty against Vipers!

Player: What for?

Ref: Blasphemy!

The Art of Coarse Rugby - Michael Green

 

[barker14610]

I was knackered and so was everyone else.

Tired kids are always trouble. Being aware of expected crabbiness would have been a good pre-match thought. How much you want to bet their nutrition for the day was a little underwhelming as well. Tired+ hungry kids= a recipe for disaster.