Law 22 variation

[Novice-Ref]

On the irb website for the new law variations, there are a series of videos. The very last one covers a scenario where the ball is kicked to in goal and the defending player touches down whilst his feet are outside the field of play. Can someone confirm the law references that mean the outcome is a 22 rather than an attacking 5 metre scrum.

 

[Christy]

On the irb website for the new law variations, there are a series of videos. The very last one covers a scenario where the ball is kicked to in goal and the defending player touches down whilst his feet are outside the field of play. Can someone confirm the law references that mean the outcome is a 22 rather than an attacking 5 metre scrum.

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[h=1]Clarification 1 2017[/h]Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee

Ruling​

1-2017

Union / HP Ref Manager​

Alain Rolland

Law Reference​

19

Date​

1 June 2017

Request
Alain Rolland, World Rugby High Performance 15s Match Official Manager seeks clarification on the interpretation of Law 19 especially in relation to:

Bringing the 22m line in line with the clarification (clarification 5 from 2016) for goal line and dead ball line:
http://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=10&year=2016&clarification=1022
Clarification in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
The changes to the touch definitions (Law 19) will also apply to the 22m line as well as the dead ball line and to the goal line. The alignment of the 22m line provisions with Law 19 does not affect the definition of Law 18 - Mark.

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[Ian_Cook]

Hi Novice ref

The thing to keep in mind is that it does not matter who makes the ball dead. It only matters who puts the ball into the in-goal

1. A 22m DO can only result from an attacking player putting the ball into in-goal

2. A 5m attacking scrum can only result from a defending player player putting the ball into in-goal

3. A 5m defending scrum can only result from an attacking player knocking the ball forward into in-goal, or taking the ball into in-goal and knocking it forward.

 

[Dickie E]

On the irb website for the new law variations, there are a series of videos. The very last one covers a scenario where the ball is kicked to in goal and the defending player touches down whilst his feet are outside the field of play. Can someone confirm the law references that mean the outcome is a 22 rather than an attacking 5 metre scrum.

[LAWS]22.7 Restarting after a touch down
(a) When an attacking player sends or carries the ball into the opponents’ in-goal and it becomes dead there, either because a defender grounded it or because it went into touch-in-goal or on or over the dead ball line, a drop-out is awarded.

(b) If an attacking player knocks-on or throws-forward in the field of play and the ball goes into the opponents’ in-goal and it is made dead there, a scrum is awarded where the knock-on or throw forward happened.

(d) If a defending player threw or took the ball into the in-goal, and a defending player grounded it, and there has been no infringement, play is restarted by a 5-metre scrum. The position of the scrum is in line with where the ball has been touched down. The attacking side throws in the ball.

[/LAWS]

 

[crossref]

3. A 5m defending scrum can only result from an attacking player knocking the ball forward into in-goal, or taking the ball into in-goal and knocking it forward.

not quite

[LAWS](c) Knock-on or throw forward into the in-goal. If an attacking player knocks-on or throws-forward in the field of play and the ball goes into the opponents’ in-goal and it is made dead there, a scrum is awarded where the knock-on or throw forward happened.[/LAWS]

of course, if the place where the knock on happened is within 5m of the goal line, the the scrum is taken out to the 5m line.

which be the case for any knock on inside the 5m line, by either team, the resulting scrum is taken on the 5m line.

 

[ChrisR]

What changed is the determination of who took the ball over the line. Previous to the change if a ball is kicked into goal and, as it is still moving, a player with a foot over the dead ball line picks it up then the ball is deemed to have been made dead by the kicker so a scrum back can be awarded. Now the ball is deemed to have been made dead by the player picking it up (does grounding count) so no scrum back.

I'm not sure if this is relevant to the OP.

I'm not in favor of the change. I liked it the way it was but then they never check with me first.

 

[Ian_Cook]

not quite

[LAWS](c) Knock-on or throw forward into the in-goal. If an attacking player knocks-on or throws-forward in the field of play and the ball goes into the opponents’ in-goal and it is made dead there, a scrum is awarded where the knock-on or throw forward happened.[/LAWS]

of course, if the place where the knock on happened is within 5m of the goal line, the the scrum is taken out to the 5m line.

which be the case for any knock on inside the 5m line, by either team, the resulting scrum is taken on the 5m line.

My point still stands. I said "can" not "does". If the ball was knocked into in-goal from 7m out then the ensuing scrum wouldn't be a 5m scrum.

You should read what you are replying to before you click "submit"

 

[crossref]

My point still stands. I said "can" not "does". If the ball was knocked into in-goal from 7m out then the ensuing scrum wouldn't be a 5m scrum.

You should read what you are replying to before you click "submit"

OK, let's do it.

Here's what you wrote

Hi Novice ref

The thing to keep in mind is that it does not matter who makes the ball dead. It only matters who puts the ball into the in-goal

1. A 22m DO can only result from an attacking player putting the ball into in-goal

2. A 5m attacking scrum can only result from a defending player player putting the ball into in-goal

3. A 5m defending scrum can only result from an attacking player knocking the ball forward into in-goal, or taking the ball into in-goal and knocking it forward.

It's the ONLY that leads you astray, not the CAN

1 is correct
2 is incorrect - an attacking 5m scrum can ALSO result from a defending knock on in the in-goal, or between the 5m line and goal line
3 is incorrect - a defending scrum can ALSO result from an attacking knock on between the 5m line and the goal-line

3 is also slightly misleading: when the attackers knock on in the FoP, it doesn't make any difference whether it goes into the in goal or not, it's where the knock on happens. The 5m scrum happens in the knock on is within 5m of the goal line.

hope that helps - (your should read what you posted before correcting my correction :wink: )

 

[Ian_Cook]

OK, let's do it.

Here's what you wrote



It's the ONLY that leads you astray, not the CAN

1 is correct
2 is incorrect - an attacking 5m scrum can ALSO result from a defending knock on in the in-goal, or between the 5m line and goal line
3 is incorrect - a defending scrum can ALSO result from an attacking knock on between the 5m line and the goal-line

3 is also slightly misleading: when the attackers knock on in the FoP, it doesn't make any difference whether it goes into the in goal or not, it's where the knock on happens. The 5m scrum happens in the knock on is within 5m of the goal line.

hope that helps - (your should read what you posted before correcting my correction :wink: )

Stop bloody quibbling about semantics. This kind of crap can only serve to confuse.

Now then, your 3 is a misquote. I said a defending 5m scrum. The OP asked about Law 22, so we are talking about situation where the ball goes into in goal. CONTEXT is really important. Yes, a 5m defending scrum could result from the ball being knocked forward 3m out and not going into in goal, BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. Everyone here understands that we are only talking about Law 22... so why are you bringing up Law 12!?

I restate what I said earlier; it is correct (in the context of this Law 22 discussion)

The thing to keep in mind is that it does not matter who makes the ball dead. It only matters who puts the ball into the in-goal

1. A 22m DO can only result from an attacking player putting the ball into in-goal

2. A 5m attacking scrum can only result from a defending player player putting the ball into in-goal

3. A 5m defending scrum can only result from an attacking player knocking the ball forward into in-goal, or taking the ball into in-goal and knocking it forward.

 

[crossref]

:biggrin:

So I think we agree

A 5m attacking scrum can only result from a defending player player putting the ball into in-goal

apart from when it happens for other reasons (viz : a defensive knock on <5m from the goal line)

A 5m defending scrum can only result from an attacking player knocking the ball forward into in-goal, or taking the ball into in-goal and knocking it forward.

apart from when it happens for other reasons (viz : an attacking knock on <5m from the goal line)

 

[Blackberry]

Novice-Ref, welcome. Don't get put off us by the spat. What I tend to do is to wait till Phil E of the BFG to answer and go with what they say.

 

[Pinky]

Novice ref, Ian's first two points are nearly correct, and are the key things about a ball being made dead in goal. It matters only who put the ball in goal. An attacker and its a 22 DO a defender and its a 5m attacking scrum.

The reason for the clip is that before the law change the player with a foot in tig or over the deadball line grounding the ball in motion would be treated as having been kicked dead by the kicking team and there would be an option to he defenders of a a scrum back where the kick happened.

 

[didds]

:biggrin:

So I think we agree


apart from when it happens for other reasons (viz : a defensive knock on <5m from the goal line)



apart from when it happens for other reasons (viz : an attacking knock on <5m from the goal line)

but not under law 22. which is the herading of this thread. which is what (I think) ian was commenting on.

So in some ways you are both right.

There - next week, the middle east crisis.

didds

 

[Taff]

On the irb website for the new law variations, there are a series of videos. The very last one covers a scenario where the ball is kicked to in goal and the defending player touches down whilst his feet are outside the field of play. Can someone confirm the law references that mean the outcome is a 22 rather than an attacking 5 metre scrum.

Hi Novice-Ref. Why would you think it could be an attacking 5m scrum? :chin:

If the ball is put in-goal by an attacker and made dead, it's a 22m DO.

Generally, if the ball is put in-goal by a defender and made dead, it's a 5m attacking scrum.

So, in your example it would be a 22m DO. There is the added complication of a scrum-back option (where the ball was kicked) if the ball was kicked through in-goal. By dabbing the ball down (instead of picking it up - this was pre 1st August) the ball wasn't kicked through in-goal, so there is no scrum back option - just a 22m DO. Makes sense?

 

[Phil E]

The first two or three responses answered the question for our novice ref.
Pinky correctly identified that the video in question was showing something different though.

What didn't help the OP was Ian and Crossref arguing like children. As I tell my kids, I don't care who started it just pack it in, you are not helping.