Law review process begins

KML1

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Hi all

Interesting stuff in here: http://rugbyreferee.net/2015/05/05/world-rugby-starts-law-review-process/

Do any of you have access to the full submissions everyone sent into WR? (not for publication)

What do you think should be the priority? Any areas that should be on that list?

I know one of the RFU submissions was about clearing up the touch law (to avoid all the 'did it cross', 'did the catcher leave the field of play', 'land in the field of play' nonsense that crops up from time to time. I didnt see it but I hope it said "When the ball cross the plane of touch, the ball is deemed out and play is restarted with a lineout" or similar.

Views?
 

didds

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seeing as the elite refs appear to ref a different set of laws to those written, or ignore them, its all rather a case of moving the deckchairs on the titanic frankly.

didds
 

KML1

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seeing as the elite refs appear to ref a different set of laws to those written, or ignore them, its all rather a case of moving the deckchairs on the titanic frankly.

didds

With all due respect, that's the predictable answer. So now it's down and out of the way, we can move on.

What do you want to change, if anything for the rugby you know. Sod the elite. It's your game too. So what would make it better? Or easier? Or simpler?
 

Dickie E


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touch.

And I'd love to see the full list too.
 

Pegleg

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Leave the grassroots alone. We have little / no issues at scrum time so why do we have to change to sort a problem the only elite gamr has?
 

crossref


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Rob Andrew as the RFU rep. Does he command general support?
 

OB..


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Law 13 is defective: It carefully defines the difference between kick-offs and restart kicks, and only subsequently mentions the latter in 13.2 Paragraphs 13.1 and 13.3 to 13.7 apparently do not apply to restart kicks, which therefore do not need to travel 10 metres etc.

In practice it is sensibly assumed the same laws apply as to kick-offs, but there is one case that is not covered: the referee does not signal when a restart kick should be taken, so presumably the kicking team can take it as soon as they like. What if the opposition has not yet got back into position? Can they insist on the restart kick being delayed? If not, what is the sanction if they are out of position and interfere??
 

OB..


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[LAWS]6.B.2 [FONT=fs_blakeregular](d) When to lower the flag. When the ball is thrown in, the touch judge or assistant referee must lower the flag, with the following exceptions:[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular]Exception 1: [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]When the player throwing in puts any part of either foot in the field of play, the touch judge or assistant referee keeps the flag up.[...][/FONT][/LAWS]
[LAWS]19.6 [...][FONT=fs_blakeregular]The player must not step into the field of play when the ball is thrown. [...][/FONT][/LAWS]
These should say the same thing.

It is probably better to spell things out in just one place and cross-refer to that when necessary.

Proposed:
The player throwing in must have both feet on the ground, and on or behind the touchline when the ball is released.
 

OB..


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Transitions between various phases of play are often unclear and need to be consistent in the laws covering those phases.

A matrix covering all transitions, possible and impossible, would be useful in ensuring all aspects are covered, though it may not need to be a law in itself.
 

OB..


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The knock-on definition is too generous. If a player accidentally knocks the ball over the head of a would be tackler, and then runs round him to catch it, that is not defined as a knock-on. Could he be tackled? Is he assumed to be in possession (= carrying the ball) when attempting a catch?

(Yes, I was playing in a game when this happened. Defenders did not know how to react, and the player scored after further juggling.)
 

Ian_Cook


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THE TACKLE
1. Incorporate those aspects of the tackle that are currently matters of referee interpretation and protocols as Laws in the Law Book
a: Define "clear release"
b: Define "The Tackle Gate" properly in the Law book, with a description and a diagram or drawing.
c: Define the order in which things must happen at the tackle i.e. tackler release > tackled player place/pass/push/release > jackler plays ball through gate etc

REASONS:
So that we have have all referees following consistent protocols at the tackle in all levels of the game

2. Remove Law 15.4 (c) to take away the tackler’s right to play the ball from any direction, i.e. make him roll away and then come through the tackle gate like everyone else.

REASONS:
a: Reduced decision-making for the referee, who no longer has to determine who is a tackler and who isn’t.
b: To make it so that all players on their feet at the breakdown are treated the same way.

3. Outlaw squeeze-ball completely as it is lying on the ball, a breach of Law 15.5 (a). The tackled player must not position himself over the ball, or remain positioned over the ball, and then push the ball between his legs. If a player is tackled into such a position, he must immediately roll onto his side and release, or push the ball out one side.

REASON: Reduced decision-making for the referee, who no longer has to judge whether or not the tackled player is intentionally slowing down the ball.

4. Only allow clean-out of players in the tackle gate and immediately either side of the gate, and specify this in Law. Players more than 1m beyond or "abeam" the gate must not be cleaned out.

REASON:
Reduced decision-making for the referee, who no longer has to judge whether or not the cleaner has run past the side or too far beyond the tackle.

TACKLE/RUCK
5. When a Ball Carrier goes to ground with the ball, the ball is deemed to be on the ground even if it is not in contact with the ground.

REASON
Reduced judgement requirement for the referee, who no longer has to judge whether or not the ball was on the ground before the ruck formed.

6. Outlaw the saddle roll completely as this is collapsing a ruck - Law 16.3 (c). Arriving players at the tackle may push players in the gate back (in a direction roughly parallel to the touch-lines) and to the ground if they wish, but must not grasp roll & them to the side and to the ground.

REASON
Player safety and consistency with Law

MAUL
7. Change priority order in Law 17.6 (c). Make whoever took the ball into contact irrelevant. If a maul ends unsuccessfully, the throw-in to the scrum is determined in the following priority...
a. the team going forward
b. the team in possession
c. the attacking team

REASON: Reduce the incentive to collapse a maul to turn-over possession.

MAUL FROM LINE-OUT
8. When a player jumps or is lifted to catch a ball in a line out he may tap, hit, or throw the ball to a team-mate while still in the air but he must not begin to hand the ball to a team-mate (and no team-mate may touch the ball in the jumper's hands) until the jumper has returned to the ground with both feet.

REASON:
To make it more difficult to illegally form a maul at a line-out that prevents the opposing team from having opportunity to sack it


SCRUM
9. Make all scrum infringements (including those that are currently FK, but excepting those that are deemed dangerous play) a penalty kick that cannot be kicked for goal (i.e. they still get gain in ground and throw in for the non-infringing team).
Exceptions would be;

20.1 (i) Charging
20.8 (h) and 20.9 (a) Collapsing
20.8 (i) Lifting/Forcing up

... which would all remain as for any other PK

REASON:
To prevent teams misusing the scrum as a means of scoring points rather than for its stated and defined purpose; "...to restart play quickly, safely and fairly, after a minor infringement or a stoppage."
 
Last edited:

menace


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Only thing I would add to Ian_C list is

Lineout numbers - no limits for either throwing or non-throwing team.

Reason: To reduce decision making for the referee. No need for the referee to count lineout numbers or manage players in and out (and which offence technically may have happened)
 

FlipFlop


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For me:

FK - direct to touch is gain in ground from anywhere, but loss of possession. This way FK offences don't matter where they are on the field.

Safety - The "jumping" player rulings of late - need to format that into law, to say when the jumper has the right to land without challenge, and when the jumper has to take care of the standing receiver.

Touch:
Revert to the simple.
A Player not in touch until they touch anything or anyone beyond touch.
A Player in touch is in touch until they have "re-established" themselves in the field of play.
Get rid of the "plane of touch".
This way a player jumping can play the ball back into the field, provided they do so before they land. We don't need to have a view of the plane of touch (impossible for a ref). We don't have 100s of different scenarios - the question is simply - has the player put themselves in touch while touching the ball?
(Don't like the idea of saying - when it crosses the plane of touch it is out. Ref cannot see that plane of touch, what if it is carried, blown back into field of play,and so on. Lets have it out when it touches someone, or something, that is in touch, or the ball carrier is in touch, until then it can do what it likes!)

Scrum - tidy up the laws, in line with current useage. Do we want a PK for standing up? Like to see all these become a FK (quick restart?) - think refs are more willing to give FK to get the game moving, and it matters less to the game than a PK, so if you are wrong, the effect is not so large.
 

crossref


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Only thing I would add to Ian_C list is

Lineout numbers - no limits for either throwing or non-throwing team.

Reason: To reduce decision making for the referee. No need for the referee to count lineout numbers or manage players in and out (and which offence technically may have happened)

I'd say that line outs have to be balanced, but remove the offence, so we just don't have the lineout until they are.

so if Red call 5 men, and blue line up with 6, then red don't throw the ball in until blue remove the player.

Same as having matched scrums in U19 and below. We have to match scrum numbers, but there is no offence that can be committed
 

beckett50


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Personally speaking I would like to see the whole line-out Law re-written as I believe that the current practise of lifting, line dancing etc has over complicated the whole process.

I know that the game is now payed at a fast pace, and fair contest is at the heart of the game. IMO the ability to support jumpers has negated the fair contest at the line-out and all the line dancing just further delays playing time.
 

crossref


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Personally speaking I would like to see the whole line-out Law re-written as I believe that the current practise of lifting, line dancing etc has over complicated the whole process.

I know that the game is now payed at a fast pace, and fair contest is at the heart of the game. IMO the ability to support jumpers has negated the fair contest at the line-out and all the line dancing just further delays playing time.

i don't - I think lineouts are great. And I don't think they take long -- much less time than scrums.
 

crossref


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I would be surprised if they do any Law re-writes for clarity.

I think they will focus on changes to try and improve the game, and we'll see some ELVs next season.
 

FlipFlop


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Lineout - would like to see wording that a team not winning the ball, must compete for it (i.e. form maul etc) OR retreat to the 10m offside line.
 

Camquin

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Frankly I would prefer to see the entire law book rewritten for clarity by a good technical author ideally one who has never played the game, so has to ask what things mean - as that is how you find out where you are unclear.

Once we have a clear set of laws, we can then look at how the game is played and compare the two and of course they will not match.
Then we can modify the laws to permit those things we want to permit - such as scrum halves digging into a ruck.

It would also point out those situation where the decision tree is so deep it is impossible to follow - such as the current touch law.

Only once we have a clear set of laws that describe the game we have now - should we think about what we want to change.

Camquin
 
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