League restructing 09/10

[Brian Ravenhill]

Just wondering what people are thinking regarding the proposals to restructure the leagues and how it will effect the progression ladder for referees, and the relative quality of games at the various levels for referees.
For those that haven’t seen the proposals here is a link to the RFU page that then shows the link to the Power Point Presentation.
http://www.community-rugby.com/communityrugby/index.cfm?fuseaction=Home.Story&StoryTypeId=108&SectionId=1080&StoryId=20762
If the link doesn't work copy and paste the text.

 

[ex-lucy]

interesting.
why do they keep changing things .. esp in the middle of a season?
i see things from many points of view
i am a member fo a level 8 club.
i ref at clubs at level 5
i recv a newsletter from a Level 2 club

level 8: mainly unaffected, we have recently gone to 12 clubs in our league. this has meant more league matches and thus more home matches.
This is good for bar takings, VP luncheons etc. We need this.
Hopefully we will go to 14 club leagues soon too. Cup matches are ok if you are winning.... the free dates then cause issues with some players wanting to rest and others wanting to play in 2s, which makes a mockery of these fixtures. So, IMHO: scrap all RFU cups and concentrate on leagues - just have county cups. The winners of these go to a RFU Cup compt?

from a level 5 pov and i had a chat to a 1st xv prop on Sunday about this very issue. He is happy. He wants more league matches. His club has depth and he believes the clubs with more depth will be more successful than others in a 14 team league. He hates days off e.g. this weekend. Doesnt see the point in playing 2nd xv: level 8.

level 2 are against it as they go down to fewer clubs in their league.
i dont u/stand the logic of this at all.

 

[OB..]

why do they keep changing things .. esp in the middle of a season?

They are not. I went to one of the roadshows, and a major point for discussion was how any changes, once agreed, should be implemented.

It seems to be certain that next season National 1 will become the Guinness Championship and will be reduced to 12 teams, but whether that is immediate or phased had not been decided. Promotion and relegation will continue at all levels.

Below level 5/6, local organisations (District or CB) will make the decisions on league size etc.

They are responding to answers from clubs about what they want, and to the need to re-structure after the EDF cup sponsorship ends. At higher levels, clubs need revenue ie regular home matches; knock out cups leave blank Saturdays. Lower down, teams like the opportunity to play new faces. Various playoff formats are envisaged to provide a champion at levels with regional leagues.

It all seemed pretty sensible to me, but unlikely to affect my level 9 club.

 

[Simon Griffiths]

Unlikely to affect my club either (nor the one I support).

I actually quite like the look of those plans. I think that slimming down L2 could be a good thing (provided provisions are in place to safeguard their financial turnover). Cutting it down a bit might concentrate the quality at that level and make them more competitive in relation to L1 clubs.

Also good to see that promotion/relegation is being included in these plans - the one thing I'm always fearful of losing when new league structures are being considered.

 

[ex-lucy]

I think that slimming down L2 could be a good thing (provided provisions are in place to safeguard their financial turnover). Cutting it down a bit might concentrate the quality at that level and make them more competitive in relation to L1 clubs.

sorry, dont u/stand that logic.
so, why dont you cut down all the other leagues so they become more competitive. instead the rfu have increased them.
i say, increase all leagues to 16 clubs, 3 promotions and 3 relegation slots.

 

[OB..]

i say, increase all leagues to 16 clubs, 3 promotions and 3 relegation slots.

At my (12 team) level there is already a noticeable gap between top and bottom of the league. 16 team leagues would increase that.

One thing I am strongly in favour of is allowing local leagues to be run locally, according to local needs.

 

[KML1]

I try not to worry too much about it - got plenty else to keep me busy. Also messes with the phsychology of how we approach games. Fact is, it looks like a lot of teams are trying to be 6th bottom, rather than third bottom this year!

From a strictly personal viewpoint, it means that by the end of the season, I need to ensure Im in a position to get GP2 (or whatever) games next year, given that there will be less of them to go round, so a smaller Div 1 pool needed. Who says there isn't any competition in refereeing!!

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

One thing I am strongly in favour of is allowing local leagues to be run locally, according to local needs.

Hello hello what's all this shouting we'll have no trouble here! :biggrin:

 

[ex-lucy]

good point kml1, it increases competition with refs as well.
i have seen it in L5 refs .... so i am guessing it is quite the same in L4+ refs too and more so if there are going to be less matches.
With 16 team leagues we would have more matches for refs and less bitching cos more of us would be satisfied.

 

[OB..]

Having 16 team leagues would reduce the level numbering, but would not make any difference to the standard of play. It would be an artificial benefit to referees

 

[Davet]

16 team leagues means 30 games per season
plus cup matches
plus friendlies

lots of rugby!

 

[Simon Thomas]

It isn't 16 team leagues all the way through !

My understanding is that the League restructuring is primarily at the higher end. National 1 reduced in number to focus limited resources and money on fewer clubs.

National 2 and 3 from 14 to 16 club leagues, so more matches for National Panel referees, so maybe increased numbers selected to Panel ? Net increase of 4 clubs up (2 [or however many they agree] out of National 1 and 2 more in National 2, National 3 N and National 3 S.

Level 5 and 6 from 12 to 14 clubs, so more Group matches and Federation appointments for development referees - some maybe larger number on Group / Fed squads. My big cxibcern is at this leve for clubs as gap between 7 and 6 is big, and from 6 to 5 even bigger still - so some teams who go up will just not be up to it. See how many bounce back down each season after promotion.

Level 7 and below unaffected referee wise, apart from losing top 4 teams, so maybe merger back to London 3 only and not London 4 as well ?

Certainly at level 9 and below it wil depend on CB and the local needs but we aren't looking for 16 team Leagues in Hampshire (well not at Governance Committee last week anyway !).

Dave T - proposal is that EDF National Trophy and Intermediate Cup to go to make way for more League matches. Senior and Junior Vase remain.

OB why would the level numbering change ? Same structure just different numbers at the higher League levels.

 

[Dixie]

Level 7 and below unaffected referee wise, apart from losing top 4 teams

Surely if 4 genuine, high quaility L.7 teams are be replaced by 4 struggling teams properly classed as L.8/9, but required to play middling L.7 oppo, the L.7 ref's lot is going to be less challenging?

OB why would the level numbering change ? Same structure just different numbers at the higher League levels.

see above - if the best L.7 refs follow the best teams into the higher league, perhaps the best L.8 refs need to be "promoted" into the new less challenging L.7 grade to referee teams they reffed competently last season at L.8?

 

[OB..]

OB why would the level numbering change ? Same structure just different numbers at the higher League levels.

If we have 16 teams per league throughout, then the number of leagues will be reduced, and many teams will be playing at a nominally higher level than before, but without any increase in skill.

 

[Simon Thomas]

OB - there is no suggestion or intent at level 7 and below that 16 team leagues will be introduced. Each division and CB will be left to do what suits them locally, and from what I hear that will be status quo or in some cases even smaller leagues, with maybe sub-competitions introduced.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Surely if 4 genuine, high quaility L.7 teams are be replaced by 4 struggling teams properly classed as L.8/9, but required to play middling L.7 oppo, the L.7 ref's lot is going to be less challenging? see above - if the best L.7 refs follow the best teams into the higher league, perhaps the best L.8 refs need to be "promoted" into the new less challenging L.7 grade to referee teams they reffed competently last season at L.8?

Why assume that refs need to be promoted ? We have to many level 6 and 7 refs and not enough matches for them. Likewise at 8, so we get a cascade down effect and level 9s end up doing level 11 matches. Also at level 7 we are in a combined League (Surrey, Sussex, and Hampshire) so any effect on a a single Society is small.

This season we have lost two level 7 referees (been higher but no longer on development squad as they plateaued out at 6 a few years ago) this season as they did not enjoy long journeys to do poor skill level 9 /10 matches.

 

[ex-lucy]

ST:

This season we have lost two level 7 referees (been higher but no longer on development squad as they plateaued out at 6 a few years ago) this season as they did not enjoy long journeys to do poor skill level 9 /10 matches.

what happened to them?
gone to London Soc?

 

[Simon Thomas]

Why would they join London ? Too far to travel, which is their beef 'in county' already, and they would have little chance of level 7 appointments in SW section of London (Surrey) either.

One is only doing Colts matches at Clubs close to him on Sundays, the other has stopped reffing totally.

 

[OB..]

OB - there is no suggestion or intent at level 7 and below that 16 team leagues will be introduced. Each division and CB will be left to do what suits them locally, and from what I hear that will be status quo or in some cases even smaller leagues, with maybe sub-competitions introduced.

Yes, I know.

I was merely responding to a comment that seemed to suggest 16 teams throughout would be a good idea.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Ah - I see OB.

Maybe on Alpha Centauri 16 team leagues at all levels might be practical !