Let him up

[Dixie]

do you think that the very first touch the NZ player makes is not actually an attempt to get the ball, but is in fact a press downwards on the england player to prevent him getting up. That would be a PK to England ...

Law reference please?

 

[crossref]

I think if you put your weight on a player already on the ground, to force him down, then it's covered by this

[LAWS]14.2 PLAYERS ON THEIR FEET
(a) Falling over the player on the ground with the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over a player with the ball who is lying on the ground.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(b) Falling over players lying on the ground near the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over players lying on the ground with the ball between them or near them.
Sanction: Penalty kick [/LAWS]

I think the guy on his feet has to go for the ball.

(actually in the specific video here, I do think the NZ player stays on the right side of legal, but as a general point I don't think you can put your weight on a palyer on the ground..)

 

[Ian_Cook]

do you think that the very first touch the NZ player makes is not actually an attempt to get the ball, but is in fact a press downwards on the england player to prevent him getting up. That would be a PK to England and the referee might lazily explain it by saying you should let him up.

No, and what you're suggesting is bollocks. There is NO requirement in Law for the player on his feet to let the player on the ground get up.

Sure, the player on the ground is allowed to get up...

[LAWS]LAW 14.1 PLAYERS ON THE GROUND
(a) A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:
• Get up with the ball
• Pass the ball
• Release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

...but the player on his feet is under no obligation to let him.

[LAWS]LAW 14.2 PLAYERS ON THEIR FEET
(a) Falling over the player on the ground with the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over a player with the ball who is lying on the ground.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(b) Falling over players lying on the ground near the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over players lying on the ground with the ball between them or near them.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

I think the reaction of the players on the NZ bench says it all.

Your snide remark does carry a grain of truth....that they obviously know the Law, and Moyes obviously doesn't.

 

[TheBFG]

No, and what you're suggesting is bollocks.

come on crossref, you should have learnt by now "Cook's Law: NZ NEVER do anything illegal"

However in this case he may have a point :wink:

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

What about playing a player without the ball Ian surely you see that as a penalty

 

[Phil E]

The ref makes the "tackler not releasing" signal. But there was never a tackle?

 

[The Fat]

I think we all agree that referee Moyes stuffed up in that video but let's have some comment on a slightly different scenario.

Black kick long. White #15 runs back and goes to ground to retrieve the ball and is closely pursued by Black #2. As Black #2 positions himself over White #15, White #15 (who is on all fours) releases the ball so that it is on the ground but is directly under but not touching his body (remember that Black #2 is standing directly over White #15 in a position to contest the ball). White #15, having exercised one of his options (release the ball), attempts to get to his feet so that he can then go for the ball.
We now have two problems.
(1) White #15 cannot get to his feet because Black #2 is "straddling" him (one leg either side of White #15's body) and
(2) Black #2 cannot get to the ball as White #15 is directly over it and trying to get to his feet.

What is your call?

 

[scarletjack]

I think we all agree that referee Moyes stuffed up in that video but let's have some comment on a slightly different scenario.

Black kick long. White #15 runs back and goes to ground to retrieve the ball and is closely pursued by Black #2. As Black #2 positions himself over White #15, White #15 (who is on all fours) releases the ball so that it is on the ground but is directly under but not touching his body (remember that Black #2 is standing directly over White #15 in a position to contest the ball). White #15, having exercised one of his options (release the ball), attempts to get to his feet so that he can then go for the ball.
We now have two problems.
(1) White #15 cannot get to his feet because Black #2 is "straddling" him (one leg either side of White #15's body) and
(2) Black #2 cannot get to the ball as White #15 is directly over it and trying to get to his feet.

What is your call?

my call would be flipin heck #2 your as fast as white #15 why not play on the wing:biggrin:

 

[SimonSmith]

I'm pinging 15.

2 has no obligation to do anything other not dive onto him. 15 has the obligation to get up or release the ball or move away. The onus is on him to act. Move away on your hands and knees

 

[scarletjack]

Agree ping 15 he is preventing #2 from playing the ball

 

[Ian_Cook]

I think we all agree that referee Moyes stuffed up in that video but let's have some comment on a slightly different scenario.

Black kick long. White #15 runs back and goes to ground to retrieve the ball and is closely pursued by Black #2. As Black #2 positions himself over White #15, White #15 (who is on all fours) releases the ball so that it is on the ground but is directly under but not touching his body (remember that Black #2 is standing directly over White #15 in a position to contest the ball). White #15, having exercised one of his options (release the ball), attempts to get to his feet so that he can then go for the ball.
We now have two problems.
(1) White #15 cannot get to his feet because Black #2 is "straddling" him (one leg either side of White #15's body) and
(2) Black #2 cannot get to the ball as White #15 is directly over it and trying to get to his feet.

What is your call?

Firstly, Black #2 is on his feet, and White #15 is not. The man on his feet is king.

[LAWS]LAW 14 DEFINITIONS
The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet.[/LAWS]

PK against White #15. In staying on all fours over the ball, he is making the ball unplayable.

[LAWS]LAW 14 DEFINITIONS
A player who makes the ball unplayable, or who obstructs the opposing team by
falling down, is negating the purpose and Spirit of the Game and must be
penalised....[/LAWS]

White 15 may get to his feet but he has no right to do so, and he has another option.

[LAWS]LAW 14.1 PLAYERS ON THE GROUND
(b) A player who passes or releases the ball must also get up or move away from it at once.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

 

[Richard smith]

can some one please point me to the page of the IRB LAWS OF THE GAME that states a player going to ground to field the ball must be allowed to return to his feet!!!


I simply cant find it

 

[Davet]

Of course White 15 could just stand up any way - if that resulted in black 2 being tipped over in the process would that be a problem?

 

[OB..]

Of course White 15 could just stand up any way - if that resulted in black 2 being tipped over in the process would that be a problem?

Playing an opponent without the ball.

 

[Taff]

can some one please point me to the page of the IRB LAWS OF THE GAME that states a player going to ground to field the ball must be allowed to return to his feet!!! I simply cant find it

The reason you can't find it, is because it doesn't exist.

The closest you'll get is Law 14.2.

14.2 PLAYERS ON THEIR FEET
(a) Falling over the player on the ground with the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over a player with the ball who is lying on the ground.
Sanction: Penalty kick

People have read this to mean "he has to let him up". Apparently this myth has been running for decades.

 

[Richard smith]

The reason you can't find it, is because it doesn't exist.

The closest you'll get is Law 14.2.

QUOTE]

Thanks Taff
So I am technically correct when i tell players and coaches that there is no requirement to let a play return to his feet after having gone to ground to field the ball

 

[Dixie]

So I am technically correct when i tell players and coaches that there is no requirement to let a play return to his feet after having gone to ground to field the ball

Yes indeed - technically, practically and any other way correct.

 

[Davet]

OB - I suspect that your comment is a little tongue in cheek - I hope so anyway.

 

[OB..]

OB - I suspect that your comment is a little tongue in cheek - I hope so anyway.

Not enough to bite it.

There are lots of possibilities, one of which is that he gets up leaving the ball on the ground and drives into the opponent. Is he forming a ruck? Playing an opponent without the ball?

 

[Davet]

Or simply exercising his option to leave the ball alone and stand up.