[Line out] Lineout called but not in touch

[ChrisR]

This happened a few years ago in a U-15 game. I'm running touch but not official AR.

White has the ball, general play near touch. Referee, who is 15m infield, whistles play dead and calls for Red lineout.

I inform him White did not go into touch. What should happen next?

 

[thepercy]

LO red

 

[Decorily]

Yip , LO Red..... and after the game the referee buys the beer for being a plonker!

 

[crossref]

For me it depends why he blew.

There are two possibilities
1- he thought he saw a foot in touch.
2- he thought you put your flag up.


If it is (1) then it's a line out. He saw it differently from you, but he's the ref and it's how he saw it that counts. You keep quiet.

If it is (2) - you had lost concentration and were waving to your girlfriend with your flag hand, then it's different. Now you 'fess up and he re-starts with a scrum. (in this scenario you are buying the beer)

 

[beckett50]

LO Red, as you say in your OP "I'm running touch, but not official AR" which means you only have the duties that have been given to you.

If, as Crossref says, he saw it differently to you then - depending upon the rapport that you have with him - there is nothing wrong with a quiet word when he comes over to you. Under no circumstances should you make others aware that you are of a different opinion.

 

[Dickie E]

I'm running touch but not official AR.

I don't see this as relevant to the issue raised.

I inform him White did not go into touch.

Hopefully you did this discreetly

 

[DocY]

Didn't a similar thing happen in the six nations?

As others have said, if one of you signals, even if the other knows they're wrong, then you take the lineout.

I've seen it happen a few times in (usually) youth games (where coaches seem excessively competitive) where they'll put their flag up/not put their flag up when someone's close to scoring regardless of whether they were in touch or not. It's maddening.

 

[Baylion]

Happened in a Super Rugby match this year, can't remember which one, I think it was one of the Lions games.

The player passed the ball inside as he was going into touch and the AR put his flag up. The receiver went through to "score" but the ref had already blown his whistle.

The ref went to the TMO and it showed the player wasn't in touch as he released the pass, the ref was reminded that he had already blown his whistle before the "try" was scored and the lineout stood.

Admittedly it was a tight call for the AR and in real time the player looked to have stepped on the line as he passed the ball.

 

[Decorily]

I don't see this as relevant to the issue raised.



Hopefully you did this discreetly

Communicating discreetly is always a good thing.....however in this instance, given that the flag wasn't raised to signal touch, I think it will be obvious to all that there is a disagreement as to what occurred!

 

[DocY]

The ref went to the TMO and it showed the player wasn't in touch as he released the pass, the ref was reminded that he had already blown his whistle before the "try" was scored and the lineout stood.

Why on earth go to the TMO when you've already made your call? He was just setting himself up for a fall there. Either the TMO confirms his call (great, but wasted time) or he doesn't, but can't change anything and has broadcast a wrong decision!

 

[Baylion]

Why on earth go to the TMO when you've already made your call? He was just setting himself up for a fall there. Either the TMO confirms his call (great, but wasted time) or he doesn't, but can't change anything and has broadcast a wrong decision!

I think he got flustered with the TV replays, the crowd and the attacking side asking for a TMO referral

 

[ChrisR]

Interesting. Everyone goes with the referees call for a Red lineout even though this creates a turnover in reds favor.

Nobody would go for "My error, not in touch, we'll restart with a White scrum in 15"? That seems the most equitable for the players.

 

[SimonSmith]

Fair point Chris - but I wouldn't make a decision like that unless I were confident I was right. My starting point, therefore, is that it was touch.

If I don't know the TJ, and he's a coach, I'm not sure being told I'd gotten it wrong would be sufficient grounds to change my mind.

 

[DocY]

Interesting. Everyone goes with the referees call for a Red lineout even though this creates a turnover in reds favor.

Nobody would go for "My error, not in touch, we'll restart with a White scrum in 15"? That seems the most equitable for the players.

I like that idea. Not sure it works in practice though - it wouldn't be TMO-able unless someone had scored and even then, I can't see how the ref would award the try: "but sir, the flag went up and we stopped playing".

I can see at lower levels it's a good as a mechanism to override clearly and obviously wrong touch judges, but otherwise the AR would have to pretty quickly admit to his mistake.

 

[ChrisR]

Doc, the OP scenario is where the flag didn't go up but the referee thought otherwise.

 

[DocY]

Doc, the OP scenario is where the flag didn't go up but the referee thought otherwise.

Well they heard the whistle and stopped then. I think it only makes it slightly easier, though. Easier to say "sorry lads, I screwed up" than "sorry lads, he screwed up". IME it's more often the TJ getting it wrong, but I might be biased in that regard

Now you've mentioned it, I would go for your suggestion. I'll try not to end up in this situation, though!

 

[ChrisR]

Fair point Chris - but I wouldn't make a decision like that unless I were confident I was right. My starting point, therefore, is that it was touch.

If I don't know the TJ, and he's a coach, I'm not sure being told I'd gotten it wrong would be sufficient grounds to change my mind.

Simon makes a good point: How much trust you have in the TJ. At U-15 in the US the TJ is most likely a coach or parent, rarely a disinterested party. Then it's "Sorry, boys, my eyes told me in touch so it's Red lineout".

If you trust the TJ (and I was a non-vested coach of another team) then go to the White scrum because a. it's the fairest call and b. the players know you got it wrong.

Insisting that you're right when you err puts you in a worse light than admitting you made a mistake. Referees aren't expected to be infallible but they are expected to be fair.

 

[Pegleg]

The moral of the story is:

As a TJ - keep to your job - flag for touch. Keep your mouth shut unless asked for a comment!

As an AR - keep to your job - Assist the ref according to your brief. Keep your mouth shut unless asked for a comment!

Don't make the ref look a plonker. He can do that for himself without your help.

 

[crossref]

Interesting. Everyone goes with the referees call for a Red lineout even though this creates a turnover in reds favor.

Nobody would go for "My error, not in touch, we'll restart with a White scrum in 15"? That seems the most equitable for the players.

I can't imagine ever calling touch myself, and then allowing someone else to persuade me it wasn't touch.

Would you call a forward pass and then allow someone to persuade you that actually it wasn't a forward pass at all? Of course not



(if the TJ flags, I blow, and then he retracts his flag, that's different. Then I'd have a scrum )

 

[ChrisR]

Would you call a forward pass and then allow someone to persuade you that actually it wasn't a forward pass at all? Of course not

Very different from touch where you have a definitive line and a TJ (that you have confidence in) in a much better position to see.