Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

[_antipodean_]

foxtel's Kick & Chase of 11th July. Same instant as your screenshot but with KR included.

Referee more interested in not getting falconed than watching chasers.

Given Poite is standing where most referee's stand, he's not able to watch the entirety of the line, that's what ARs are supposed to assist with. And neither is it C&O that Keiran Read is in front of the ball.

But here's a C&O example of offside moments before:

Small wonder Garces and Poite failed to get the following offside call wrong. This sort of incompetence should not be permitted by World Rugby who true to form will wash their hands of such an inept display.

Update: here's a supporting view:
http://rugbyonslaught.com/watch-sho...ick-off-led-accidental-offside-penalty-lions/

Videos that purport to show offside after the ball has already been kicked relying on the same footage I've taken a screenshot of, prove nothing. You're adding nothing of benefit to this conversation.

 

[Dickie E]

And neither is it C&O that Keiran Read is in front of the ball.

at the risk of repeating myself, again, being in front is irrelevant. He needs to be behind ... all of him. Capeesh?

 

[damo]

Given Poite is standing where most referee's stand, he's not able to watch the entirety of the line, that's what ARs are supposed to assist with. And neither is it C&O that Keiran Read is in front of the ball.

But here's a C&O example of offside moments before:

Small wonder Garces and Poite failed to get the following offside call wrong. This sort of incompetence should not be permitted by World Rugby who true to form will wash their hands of such an inept display.



Videos that purport to show offside after the ball has already been kicked relying on the same footage I've taken a screenshot of, prove nothing. You're adding nothing of benefit to this conversation.

Funny picture. It looks like the AB lifters are about to lift a Lions player.

Why has Poite not blown the whistle there? That's pretty blatant. Not sure it's offside to be fair but it's definitely closing the gap and so a FK.

 

[Phil E]

Funny picture. It looks like the AB lifters are about to lift a Lions player.

Why has Poite not blown the whistle there? That's pretty blatant. Not sure it's offside to be fair but it's definitely closing the gap and so a FK.

There's no offence there at all.
The game hasn't restarted.

 

[crossref]

There's no offence there at all.
The game hasn't restarted.

well, it was still looking just the same when the ball was thrown.. Red 8 taking out Black 6 isn't it?
https://youtu.be/CtDnkqIv4Mk?t=6084

RP did actually give a FK for closing the gap right at the start of the game, but never again after that.

 

[_antipodean_]

at the risk of repeating myself, again, being in front is irrelevant. He needs to be behind ... all of him. Capeesh?

Like the offside line at every ruck or defenders who have a foot on or behind the goal line?

Either way, you've failed to show Keiran Read was offside despite plenty of opportunities.

There's no offence there at all.
The game hasn't restarted.

What?

19.13 Offside lines at the lineout
(a) When a lineout forms, there are two separate offside lines, parallel to the goal lines, for the teams.
(b) Participating players. One offside line applies to the players taking part in the lineout (usually some or all of the forwards, plus the scrum half and the player throwing in). Until the ball is thrown in, and has touched a player or the ground, this offside line is the line of touch.​

 

[Phil E]

What?

19.13 Offside lines at the lineout
(a) When a lineout forms, there are two separate offside lines, parallel to the goal lines, for the teams.
(b) Participating players. One offside line applies to the players taking part in the lineout (usually some or all of the forwards, plus the scrum half and the player throwing in). Until the ball is thrown in, and has touched a player or the ground, this offside line is the line of touch.​

How can you be offside at the lineout when there is no lineout...the lineout hasn't started.

19.9 BEGINNING AND ENDING A LINEOUT
(a) Lineout begins. The lineout begins when the ball leaves the hands of the player throwing it
in.

 

[Ian_Cook]

There's no offence there at all.
The game hasn't restarted.

Of course there is

[LAWS]Law 19.8 Forming a Lineout

(l) Two single straight lines. The lineout players of both teams form two single parallel lines
each at right angles to the touchline.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(m) Opposing players forming a lineout must keep a clear space between their inside shoulders.
This space is determined when players are in an upright stance.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

Metre gap. Each line of players must be half a metre on their side of the line of touch.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line[/LAWS]

All this is before the lineout begins

The well known Welsh referee, Clive Norling reckoned that penalising "closing the gap" one of the most under utilised sanctions in the game. At the time he refereed, the line-out was the kind of never-ending problem that we have with the scrum today. Clive insisted that most of the two dozen or so lineout infringements in the Law book were always preceded by players closing the gap, a FK offence, so he decided to punish it ruthlessly. At a stroke, he halved the average number of PKs in his games and there were almost no lineout PKs

 

[_antipodean_]

How can you be offside at the lineout when there is no lineout...the lineout hasn't started.

19.9 BEGINNING AND ENDING A LINEOUT
(a) Lineout begins. The lineout begins when the ball leaves the hands of the player throwing it
in.

Don't confuse formed with beginning.

 

[Phil E]

So how many Penalty Kicks have you given for offside at the lineout, before the ball has been thrown in and the game has restarted?

 

[_antipodean_]

So how many Penalty Kicks have you given for offside at the lineout, before the ball has been thrown in and the game has restarted?

Strangely I've only ever had people closing the gap, not joining the other side's lineout.

 

[didds]

Given Poite is standing where most referee's stand, he's not able to watch the entirety of the line, that's what ARs are supposed to assist with. And neither is it C&O that Keiran Read is in front of the ball.

But here's a C&O example of offside moments before:

Small wonder Garces and Poite failed to get the following offside call wrong. This sort of incompetence should not be permitted by World Rugby who true to form will wash their hands of such an inept display.



Videos that purport to show offside after the ball has already been kicked relying on the same footage I've taken a screenshot of, prove nothing. You're adding nothing of benefit to this conversation.

Its even worse than that! Warburton seems to dummy jump at first, jumping into and closing the bgap at the fornt. Only then eventually doe sthe ball get thrown to itoje at the back.

I guess it would be claimed that it is covered under "materialism" ie the dummy jump at the front and closing the gap didn't affect the throw to the rear.

https://www.youtube.com/v/CtDnkqIv4Mk&start=6095&end=6105

Whatever.

didds

 

[OB..]

on a rugby pitch there are plenty of actions that are instinctive but, nevertheless, are PK offences. Just introduce a newcomer to the game and watch how many PKs he gives away.

That is because he has not developed the correct instincts for rugby.

Playing rugby is sometimes about overcoming your instincts.

Instinct is faster than thinking, so when they conflict you get just this sort of problem. It is surely the case that the ball was caught instinctively, but as soon as his thoughts caught up, he released it like a hot potato. Whether that should count against him to make it non-accidental is the point under discussion.

 

[OB..]

I'll bet you're not so forgiving when a ball carrier steps an opponent and the opponent instinctively sticks an arm out and catches the ball carrier around the throat!! You might be understanding and consider it a reflex action, but I'll bet you would still PK him and if it was bad enough, card him.

That is an incorrect rugby instinct - the sort of thing he should have learned not to do.

Owens letting the ball go could also just as easily be him realizing full well that he was offside and trying to unwind the clock and not get PK.

Of course it was - instinct kicked in first. Catching the ball when it comes at you unexpectedly is usually a good rugby instinct - but he suddenly realised it was probably wrong in this case. The question is whether we should label it "accidental" when it was a valid instinct and in that sense not deliberate.

 

[didds]

There's something about things not happening by accident at these levels?

And I do see the irony in tackling a jumping pass receiver having no leeway when faced with less time than KO had to catch a ball. (I'm not suggesting OB believes the tackler has no leeway necessarily)



didds

 

[ChrisR]

Given Poite is standing where most referee's stand, he's not able to watch the entirety of the line, that's what ARs are supposed to assist with. And neither is it C&O that Keiran Read is in front of the ball.

But here's a C&O example of offside moments before:

Small wonder Garces and Poite failed to get the following offside call wrong. This sort of incompetence should not be permitted by World Rugby who true to form will wash their hands of such an inept display.



Videos that purport to show offside after the ball has already been kicked relying on the same footage I've taken a screenshot of, prove nothing. You're adding nothing of benefit to this conversation.

This is a C & O attempt to hi-jack this thread! :rc:

But while I'm at here are some thoughts:

1. The line-of-touch runs thru the AR, not the thrower, so both Red (at the front) and Black (at the back) are offending.
2. Please show me where 'closing the gap' is referenced in the Laws. I did find:

19.14 OFFSIDE WHEN TAKING PART IN THE LINEOUT(a) Before the ball has touched a player or the ground. A player must not overstep the line
of touch. A player is offside if , before the ball has touched a player or the ground , that player
oversteps the line of touch , unless doing so while jumping for the ball. The player must jump
from that player’s side of the line of touch.
Sanction: Penalty kick on the 15-metre line
(b) If a player jumps and crosses the line of touch but fails to catch the ball , that player is not
penalised provided that player gets back onside without delay.
Players jumping for the ball may take a step in any direction providing they do not step
across the line of touch.
Sanction: Penalty kick on the 15-metre line

Now, can we move this to its appropriate section.

 

[SimonSmith]

That is an incorrect rugby instinct - the sort of thing he should have learned not to do.

Of course it was - instinct kicked in first. Catching the ball when it comes at you unexpectedly is usually a good rugby instinct - but he suddenly realised it was probably wrong in this case. The question is whether we should label it "accidental" when it was a valid instinct and in that sense not deliberate.

With respect, the judgment you apply to Owens could (indeed, should?) be applied to Ian's first instance of the wrong footed high tackle. Both are instinctive, and both are wrong under law. if one is to be penalized, so too the other.

 

[ChrisR]

From an earlier post from Ian with my comments:

FACT: The man in front at restart was not C&O
FACT: KR competed fairly under the current protocol for fair competition in the air
FACT: Williams knocked the ball on - Clear and Obvious Not for me. The ball comes off Williams head/shoulder and does not go forward.
FACT: Owens played the ball in an offside position - Clear and Obvious Agreed. But is it accidental?

and finally

FACT: Romain Poite and Jerome Garces combined to make complete pig's breakfast of a simple and straightforward decision. Agreed.

My final thoughts on this thread:

1. Laws 11.6 & 11.7 not agreeing on sanction is stupid. Eliminate 11.7 as it is redundant.

2. If this scenario had occurred in a match with me in the middle I would most likely yelled "Play on!". There is no way that I could have processed all this in real time.

 

[_antipodean_]

This is a C & O attempt to hi-jack this thread! :rc:

But while I'm at here are some thoughts:

1. The line-of-touch runs thru the AR, not the thrower, so both Red (at the front) and Black (at the back) are offending.
2. Please show me where 'closing the gap' is referenced in the Laws.

The line of touch is an imaginary line in the field of play at right angles to the touchline through the place where the ball is thrown in.​

And closing the gap is from 19.8 Forming a lineout

(l) Two single straight lines. The lineout players of both teams form two single parallel lines each at right angles to the touchline.​

​

(m) Opposing players forming a lineout must keep a clear space between their inside shoulders. This space is determined when players are in an upright stance.​

​

Metre gap. Each line of players must be half a metre on their side of the line of touch.​

 

[ChuckieB]

11.6b

Had Owens had the ball handed towards him instead of falling to him (forward or not) I suspect his first instinct would to have been to accept it in the same way as he did when responding to the catch, i.e. not pull his hands away.

And yet such a situation, perhaps more equitably, allows for the accidental offside call even if both players are heading towards the opponents DBL. Heading backwards to your own DBL surely strengthens such an argument.

Many elements of the laws need to be rewritten in the light of being "outed" as weak due to the wide availability and actual use of video technology.

Two extremely high profile instances in the space of just two years contribute to a compelling argument for change.