Lions Series - Accidental Offsite?

Ian_Cook


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Sounds to me like some of your are looking for any excuse to excuse a referee who dropped a huge bollock.

The Red player was NOT accidentally offside, he was just plain offside in general play.

Accidentally offside only applies when

1. a player is run into by a ball carrier team mate behind of him.

2. a player cannot avoid being touched by a ball that was played by a team-mate behind him

[LAWS]11.6 ACCIDENTAL OFFSIDE
(a) When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying
it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play
continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing
team throwing in the ball.
[/LAWS]

The Red player PLAYED AT THE BALL AND CAUGHT IT . He made no attempt whatsoever to get out of the way of it. That is a PK for offside every day of the week.

As for the assertion that Read's contest in the air was unfair...? Utter bollocks. That contest was perfectly fair.

1. Both players had a good chance to get possession of the ball

2. Both players got up to the same height.

Just because one player clatters the other in the air does automatically mean the clatterer is in the wrong (see Biggar v Russell - Wales v Scotland, 2015 Six Nations)

Finally, the TMO protocol.

I thought it was clear that the referee could only use the TMO review scoring or for foul play. Even if Poite had gone to the TMO over the challenge in the air, the TMO then cannot bring anything else to the attention of the referee that is not directly involved with the alleged foul play unless it was another act of foul play. If this is what they have done, then that is a egregious breach of TMO protocols.

This is not the first time Poite has dropped a huge bollock. (See the YC given to Bismarck Du Plessis for a perfectly legitimate tackle on Dan Carter in 2013). That was a decision that had huge repercussions later in the game when Du Plessis copped another YC and South Africa lost him for the rest of the match.

In this case, Poite has committed an unforgivable Law error that has had a direct impact on the result of the game.
 

Ian_Cook


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You seriously think he had time to get out of the way?!
he had more decision time available to him than Charlie Faumuina had last weekend!


He certainly had time to put his hands up and let the ball hit him. THAT would have been accidental, but he chose to grab the ball and take a couple of paces with it before he realised he was offside and tried to mend the situation by letting go of the ball..
 
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Cross

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I am quite surprised not only by the decision but also at the reaction of most people rationalizing the decision.
He grabbed the ball.

Additionally, what i find both confusing and irritating is how on one hand people are incredibly severe with last week's tackler and put the 100% of the blame on him, and on the other hand they are incredibly lenient with someone who had the time to grab the ball.
Dunno about you, but i consider the tackling from the second test 10 times more instinctive than grabbing the ball.
 

Ian_Cook


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He hasn't read View attachment 3570 yet, either. What do you expect of him?

How does that apply to this situation, given that I said "I thought it was clear that the referee could only use the TMO review scoring or for foul play."

ETA:

Further, I bring the following to you attention, which I am sure you haven't read

Extract from WR TMO Protocols

4. Potential acts of foul play

4.1 The match officials may suggest that the referee refers the matter to the TMO for review if they observe an act of foul play (prior to the next restart in play) where:

 They may have only partially observed an act or acts of foul play
 They are unsure of the exact circumstances
 The views of the match officials reporting the act(s) of foul play differ
 There is doubt as to the appropriate sanctions to be applied.

4.2 If the referee agrees to refer the matter to the TMO he will indicate that he wishes the TMO to review the potential act(s) of foul play and to make a recommendation as to the appropriate sanction(s).

4.3 In reviewing the potential offence, the TMO must use the criterion on each occasion that the infringement must be clear and obvious especially where sanctions may apply where a player is removed from the field of play, either temporarily or permanently.

4.4 The other match officials may utilise the in*‐stadium screens (where available) to form a judgment in this matter.


So the only thing they can review are the offences for which the TMO review was called. They cannot just have a general look around for other non-foul play offences.
 
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Ian_Cook


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I am quite surprised not only by the decision but also at the reaction of most people rationalizing the decision.
He grabbed the ball.

Additionally, what i find both confusing and irritating is how on one hand people are incredibly severe with last week's tackler and put the 100% of the blame on him, and on the other hand they are incredibly lenient with someone who had the time to grab the ball.
Dunno about you, but i consider the tackling from the second test 10 times more instinctive than grabbing the ball.

This, 100%
 

Pegleg

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I felt last week the ABs should not have been pingged, This week I think the ref was right not to ping. Catching the ball was instinctive. So I'd like to think that I'm not in the category of double standards. A ball, indeed any object, coming at you from that close a distance is likely to be caught. Reaction times and all that.
 

crossref


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Owens caught the ball, of course it was a PK, even Owens thought so.
Also , from what I could hear of the conversation with the TMO, he also thought it was a PK. I was astonished when Poite jogged over and gave the scrum (and so were both Warburton and Read)

Of course you feel some sympathy for Owens, but nevertheless it was a PK

However the AB only have themselves to blame that the score was even. They really butchered some changes in the first half
 

The Fat


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I felt last week the ABs should not have been pingged, This week I think the ref was right not to ping. Catching the ball was instinctive. So I'd like to think that I'm not in the category of double standards. A ball, indeed any object, coming at you from that close a distance is likely to be caught. Reaction times and all that.

Pretty sure cross' post is aimed at moi.
All I have done in this thread is to throw a few points for discussion into the ring. I haven't given an opinion one way or the other, simply pointing out a few possibilities and asking the question, can a player be offside from a ball that doesn't travel forward?
Just throwing stuff out there for discussion.
Ian may also be able to calculate Red 16's reaction time based on frames for us as well.
 

ChuckieB

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How does that apply to this situation, given that I said "I thought it was clear that the referee could only use the TMO review scoring or for foul play."

ETA:

Further, I bring the following to you attention, which I am sure you haven't read

Extract from WR TMO Protocols

4. Potential acts of foul play

4.1 The match officials may suggest that the referee refers the matter to the TMO for review if they observe an act of foul play (prior to the next restart in play) where:

 They may have only partially observed an act or acts of foul play
 They are unsure of the exact circumstances
 The views of the match officials reporting the act(s) of foul play differ
 There is doubt as to the appropriate sanctions to be applied.

4.2 If the referee agrees to refer the matter to the TMO he will indicate that he wishes the TMO to review the potential act(s) of foul play and to make a recommendation as to the appropriate sanction(s).

4.3 In reviewing the potential offence, the TMO must use the criterion on each occasion that the infringement must be clear and obvious especially where sanctions may apply where a player is removed from the field of play, either temporarily or permanently.

4.4 The other match officials may utilise the in*‐stadium screens (where available) to form a judgment in this matter.


So the only thing they can review are the offences for which the TMO review was called. They cannot just have a general look around for other non-foul play offences.

i don't see that this guidance specifically precludes an official from considering other matters that may have come to his attention while reviewing an instance of potential foul play.
 
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damo


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Owens caught the ball, of course it was a PK, even Owens thought so.
Also , from what I could hear of the conversation with the TMO, he also thought it was a PK. I was astonished when Poite jogged over and gave the scrum (and so were both Warburton and Read)

Of course you feel some sympathy for Owens, but nevertheless it was a PK

However the AB only have themselves to blame that the score was even. They really butchered some changes in the first half
+1 on all counts.
 

Ian_Cook


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Pretty sure cross' post is aimed at moi.
All I have done in this thread is to throw a few points for discussion into the ring. I haven't given an opinion one way or the other, simply pointing out a few possibilities and asking the question, can a player be offside from a ball that doesn't travel forward?
Just throwing stuff out there for discussion.
Ian may also be able to calculate Red 16's reaction time based on frames for us as well.

Discussion Point 1 The ball was knocked on by Williams, C&O, no discussion needed.

Discussion Point 2: The suggestion that Owens did not have time to react is rubbish. He brought his left arm from his side into a catching position and caught the ball, ergo, he must have had time to react, but since you asked the question, it was 19 frames of video from the time Williams touched the ball to the time Owens caught it...at 30 f/s, that is 0.63 of a second, more that 2½ times the average reaction time for humans to a visual stimulus, 0.25 seconds

Rushforth has argued that Read may have also touched the ball. That may be correct, but it is far from C&O. However, he also argues, in the same breath, that it was not a fair contest. That is an obvious logical disconnect; if its not a fair contest then you have no chance of getting to the ball, but if you touch the the ball on then you must have got to it. You can't argue both claims to be true.
 

Dickie E


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That is an obvious logical disconnect; if its not a fair contest then you have no chance of getting to the ball, but if you touch the the ball on then you must have got to it.

No disconnect. You can recklessly throw yourself into the player in the air with no real chance to legally gather or knock the ball and still get a fingertip to it.

Given the uncertainty about who touched the ball possibly in the mind of the offside Red player, I think a scrum was reasonable outcome.

And also:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...anged-his-mind-as-UK-media-swerve-controversy
 

Rob M W


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Am I the only person who doesn't think the ball was actually knocked on? I didn't think it was at the time and I've watched and re watched it and I still don't see the ball going forward.
 

Ian_Cook


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No disconnect. You can recklessly throw yourself into the player in the air with no real chance to legally gather or knock the ball and still get a fingertip to it.

Given the uncertainty about who touched the ball possibly in the mind of the offside Red player, I think a scrum was reasonable outcome.

And also:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...anged-his-mind-as-UK-media-swerve-controversy

Dan Biggar v Finn Russel

Biggar recklessly launches himself at the ball, and because he catches it, he is deemed to have been competing fairly. Finn Russell pays the price for Biggar's recklessness with a YC

Biggar misses the ball, Russel catches it and Biggar cleans out Russel, then Biggar will be deemed to be in the wrong (you an ask CJ Stander about that one)
 

crossref


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Am I the only person who doesn't think the ball was actually knocked on? I didn't think it was at the time and I've watched and re watched it and I still don't see the ball going forward.

I think you are !
 

Skids


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If you watch the slow motion replay, after the ball contacts Williams it is 'caught' by Owens about a metre nearer to the Lions DBL.

I think their point is that it goes forward (ie towards AB DBL) out of Williams' hand, but because he is moving towards his own DBL that little bit quicker, the ball actually travels that 1 metre towards the Lions DBL. Still forwards because it left his hand that way. Same as not a forward pass when the ball actually goes forwards over the ground but the speed of the player/ball forwards is greater than the speed of the ball backwards, hence the sum total of the speed vectors is forwards.

Or sumfin like dat. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
 

Dickie E


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If you watch the slow motion replay, after the ball contacts Williams it is 'caught' by Owens about a metre nearer to the Lions DBL.

Hard to fault.

knock.jpg Contact in air in line with the 'd' on the pitch marking

catch.jpg Caught on ground in line with the 'r'

But its the old chestnut ... ball is passed to you at 45 degrees and you get enough hand on it so that it is still travelling towards your own DBL but only less so. Is that a KO?
 
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