Little bit of politics - let's keep it civil

Taff


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From the BBC

Leaders agree to review EU agenda at Brussels summit.

EU leaders have agreed to re-evaluate the bloc's agenda after voters "sent a strong message", European Council President Herman Van Rompuy has said. Mr Van Rompuy said leaders of the 28 member states had asked him to launch consultations on future policies. He was speaking after a meeting in Brussels to discuss big election gains by populist and far-right parties.

The results of the European Parliament election led to calls for an EU rethink by those leaders who suffered defeats. The BBC's Chris Morris says reforms could include less regulation and less focus on economic austerity policies, while measures to boost growth and create jobs could address voter discontent.
My best guess is that no amount of "reviewing" or "re-evaluation" or "consultations" or "discussions" or "rethinking" will keep the UKIP supporters happy.

What they want is action and without it, all the consultations and reviews in the world are just a waste of expensive time. To be honest I reckon that's a classic fob-off ... kick it into the long grass type response, and it isn't going to be enough for the disaffected.
 

Browner

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And so you have Nigel Farage. Apparently we now live in a world where being a public schoolboy and commodities trader makes you a more credible voice of the ordinary person than anyone on the Labour frontbench

He's likely the 1st ever Politician to have created a niche' or rebranded himself to further his political aims !

Even Clement Atlee turned from Conservative to Socialist......some argue that Tony Blair invented a New Party from within a old one.
 

Dixie


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some argue that Tony Blair invented a New Party from within a old one.
Tony Blair - best Conservative PM since Maggie went off her rocker - which isn't saying much.
 

4eyesbetter


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He's likely the 1st ever Politician to have created a niche' or rebranded himself to further his political aims !

That wasn't the point; the point was that nobody seems to be pointing it out as a reasonable line of attack which could undermine that carefully-crafted image. (Although I'm gratified to see that finally people have been talking about the highly creative state of his expenses claims.)

Even Clement Atlee turned from Conservative to Socialist......some argue that Tony Blair invented a New Party from within a old one.

Note that I said "anyone on the Labour frontbench". In Attlee's cabinet there were more people round that table who'd spent ten years working for a living than ten years getting an elite education, and very few of those career politicians.
 

RobLev

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...

1. While ECJ Rulings do influence Law in Switzerland to a certain extent, mainly in the areas of economic policy, the Rulings themselves cannot be enforced. From a sports perspective, for example, the 1995 Bosman Ruling, and the 2003 Kolpak Ruling do not apply in Switzerland and cannot be enforced there.

...

Just on this point; Article 16 disagrees with you in relation to Bosman; and the implications of the Kolpak ruling for the agreement would have had to be considered by the Joint Committee and implemented.
 

Ian_Cook


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Just on this point; Article 16 disagrees with you in relation to Bosman; and the implications of the Kolpak ruling for the agreement would have had to be considered by the Joint Committee and implemented.
You've missed the point.

Yes, the Swiss do implement the provisions of the Bosman and Kolpak rulings, for example, Swiss Football Regulations

Article 3 – Nationality
1) The following are considered "national" (i.e. not foreign) players:
— All players with Swiss nationality;
— All EU and EFTA nationality players
— All home grown players.

Article 3b – "Home grown" players
1) Independent of their nationality, players who have spent at least 3 seasons at a club affiliated to the Swiss FA between the ages of 15 and 21 are considered to be home grown.

Article 6 – Contingent
1) For each season, in the Swiss Super League (the top division) and Swiss Cup, clubs are limited to a contingent of 25 players, inclduing a maximum of 17 who are not "home grown".


However, they do so voluntarily. Should the Swiss decide to change that regulation to, say, remove the EU and EFTA exceptions from Article 3, they would be within their rights to do so, and there isn't anything the the ECJ could do about it. This is unlike other countries who are in the EU like Germany or France, where the ECJ can bring down a ruling that must be complied with or a prosecution will follow.

As I said, ECJ rulings are NOT enforcible in Switzerland, because that country falls outside of its jurisdiction. The ECJ can no more enforce Kolpak or Bosman in Switzerland than it could here in NZ.
 

Taff


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You sir. You sit there with our countries flag. You do not represent our countries interest.
Really? Yet 27.5% of British voters want him to represent them, compared to the 25% who wanted Labour to represent them. How do you explain those figures then Mr Blair?

Perhaps he does represent more British people than you give him credit for.
 
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RobLev

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You've missed the point.

Yes, the Swiss do implement the provisions of the Bosman and Kolpak rulings, for example, Swiss Football Regulations

Article 3 – Nationality
1) The following are considered "national" (i.e. not foreign) players:
— All players with Swiss nationality;
— All EU and EFTA nationality players
— All home grown players.

Article 3b – "Home grown" players
1) Independent of their nationality, players who have spent at least 3 seasons at a club affiliated to the Swiss FA between the ages of 15 and 21 are considered to be home grown.

Article 6 – Contingent
1) For each season, in the Swiss Super League (the top division) and Swiss Cup, clubs are limited to a contingent of 25 players, inclduing a maximum of 17 who are not "home grown".


However, they do so voluntarily. Should the Swiss decide to change that regulation to, say, remove the EU and EFTA exceptions from Article 3, they would be within their rights to do so, and there isn't anything the the ECJ could do about it. This is unlike other countries who are in the EU like Germany or France, where the ECJ can bring down a ruling that must be complied with or a prosecution will follow.

As I said, ECJ rulings are NOT enforcible in Switzerland, because that country falls outside of its jurisdiction. The ECJ can no more enforce Kolpak or Bosman in Switzerland than it could here in NZ.

With respect, you're the one who's missed the point; under Article 16 the Swiss national courts will so interpret the treaty as to reflect the Bosman ruling on any application made to them by an aggrieved individual under Article 11. They will enforce Bosman. Does it matter which court provides the remedy?
 

didds

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UKIP - The K-Tel of the political world.

same old shit, different label.

(with apologies to Alexei Sayle and the SDP)

didds
 

Ciaran Trainor


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Wish I'd have voted for the pirate party now who were standing in my area but I had no flyers so don't know what their policy was!
 

Ian_Cook


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With respect, you're the one who's missed the point; under Article 16 the Swiss national courts will so interpret the treaty as to reflect the Bosman ruling on any application made to them by an aggrieved individual under Article 11. They will enforce Bosman. Does it matter which court provides the remedy?

Yes it does matter, it would be a Swiss Court, not the European Court, a very, very important distinction. A breach of Kolpak/Bosman in Germany, France Italy et al, would be a breach of the European Law and therefore DIRECTLY enforcible by the ECJ because those countries fall within its jurisdiction, but a breach of Kolpak/Bosman in Switzerland would be a breach of a TREATY, and therefore NOT enforcible by the ECJ. It comes down to Sovereignty. While the Swiss Court could prosecute it is under no obligation to do so, and cannot be forced to do so. Treaties can be broken and are broken regularly when one side or the other finds themselves disadvantaged, or when the terms of the treaty no longer suit them.

Furthermore, were the Swiss Government to decide that they would allow sports bodies to no longer follow the Kolpak and/or Bosman rulings, there is not thing one that the ECJ could do about it. The same cannot be said for EU countries because they effectively governed from Luxembourg!*


*There is a delicious irony in having the European Court of Justice based in a country who's motto is "Mir wëlle bleiwe wat mir sinn" ("We want to remain what we are")
 

4eyesbetter


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Really? Yet 27.5% of British voters want him to represent them, compared to the 25% who wanted Labour to represent them. How do you explain those figures then Mr Blair?

Perhaps he does represent more British people than you give him credit for.

25% of a 36% turnout is not "25% of British voters". It's about 9% of British voters. And they want him to represent them...at the European Parliament, which for most people might as well be in outer Mongolia, or Stranraer. Nobody is voting for Nigel Farage because they think he'll be an efficient MEP. Not even Nigel Farage voted for himself to be an efficient MEP.

This is why the next year is going to be so interesting. It's one thing to send UKIP to Strasbourg, where they can funnel expenses back to party coffers and occasionally be rude to people. It's another thing entirely to put them on the council where they're actually going to have to make some decisions that matter to people's lives.
 

Taff


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25% of a 36% turnout is not "25% of British voters".
"Voters" - ie people who voted; not "eligible voters" ie people who had the right to vote but didn't for whatever reason inc apathy.

... Nobody is voting for Nigel Farage because they think he'll be an efficient MEP. Not even Nigel Farage voted for himself to be an efficient MEP.
Depends what you mean by "efficient" I suppose. He's been put there to rock the boat. I'm sure he'll be very efficient at that.
 

4eyesbetter


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"Voters" - ie people who voted; not "eligible voters" ie people who had the right to vote but didn't for whatever reason inc apathy.

See, this is what I find interesting. If the EU is such a horribly draconian overlord, wielding swingeing and intolerable power over the straightness of our bananas and the sugar in our jam, why aren't more than 9% of the electorate turning out to overthrow it? If it's so important to our everyday lives, why aren't the papers constantly full of the latest directives and court rulings, in the same way that they cover the goings-on at Westminster? Why aren't they covering the European election campaign in detail, following the party leaders around, issuing calls to their readers to go out and vote for Europe and help make a change happen, like they do before every general election?

For the vast majority of people it's just not something they're particularly worried about.
 

RobLev

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Yes it does matter, it would be a Swiss Court, not the European Court, a very, very important distinction. A breach of Kolpak/Bosman in Germany, France Italy et al, would be a breach of the European Law and therefore DIRECTLY enforcible by the ECJ because those countries fall within its jurisdiction, but a breach of Kolpak/Bosman in Switzerland would be a breach of a TREATY, and therefore NOT enforcible by the ECJ. It comes down to Sovereignty. While the Swiss Court could prosecute it is under no obligation to do so, and cannot be forced to do so. Treaties can be broken and are broken regularly when one side or the other finds themselves disadvantaged, or when the terms of the treaty no longer suit them.

Furthermore, were the Swiss Government to decide that they would allow sports bodies to no longer follow the Kolpak and/or Bosman rulings, there is not thing one that the ECJ could do about it. The same cannot be said for EU countries because they effectively governed from Luxembourg!*


*There is a delicious irony in having the European Court of Justice based in a country who's motto is "Mir wëlle bleiwe wat mir sinn" ("We want to remain what we are")

Courts don't prosecute; they adjudicate on cases brought before them.

Article 11 makes the terms of the treaty enforceable in the Swiss courts at the suit of the individual whose rights have been infringed by non-observance of the treaty; for example a footballer whose club won't release his registration without payment of a transfer fee even though he is out of contract.

The Swiss court could of course decline to apply the relevant law in the same was it could decline to apply any applicable law not deriving from the FMP treaty - but that's not a matter of sovereignty but of miscarriage of justice.

...and you have a 'Kippers (which is to say not entirely factual) view of the relationship between the EU and its member states. The ECJ has no army, nor even bailiffs.
 

RobLev

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"Voters" - ie people who voted; not "eligible voters" ie people who had the right to vote but didn't for whatever reason inc apathy.

Depends what you mean by "efficient" I suppose. He's been put there to rock the boat. I'm sure he'll be very efficient at that.

Well, since he virtually never attends the Parliament to which he has been elected (what - a politician not doing his job - shock horror) he can't be doing much rocking. In fact IIRC he's been criticised by his fellow boat-rockers from other European countries for not being there to help push...
 

Dixie


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See, this is what I find interesting. If the EU is such a horribly draconian overlord, wielding swingeing and intolerable power over the straightness of our bananas and the sugar in our jam, why aren't more than 9% of the electorate turning out to overthrow it?
Perhaps due to a recognition that if 100% of people in the UK voted UKIP in a European election, the resulting 69 MEPs would be perpetually outvoted by the 96 German MEPs, leaving the remaining 601 MEPs to decide whatever they like without any reference at all to UK sentiment?

If it's so important to our everyday lives, why aren't the papers constantly full of the latest directives and court rulings, in the same way that they cover the goings-on at Westminster?
I'll hazard the guess that you don't read the Daily Express.

why aren't the papers constantly full of the latest directives and court rulings, in the same way that they cover the goings-on at Westminster?
The papers and the broadcast media do indeed take exactly the same approach to the business of the European institutions as they do to the business of the Westminster and devolved parliaments - they ignore it completely. Parliament is currently in recess - I bet most people in the country are completely unaware of that fact. When not in recess, with the exception of a few high-profile matters such as phone hacking etc, there is precisely ZERO coverage of select committee meetings, which is where the majority of Westminster work is conducted. Naturally, I exclude The Parliament Channel from this criticism - I refer to media watched by more than 0.01% of the population.
 

RobLev

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Courts don't prosecute; they adjudicate on cases brought before them.

Article 11 makes the terms of the treaty enforceable in the Swiss courts at the suit of the individual whose rights have been infringed by non-observance of the treaty; for example a footballer whose club won't release his registration without payment of a transfer fee even though he is out of contract.

The Swiss court could of course decline to apply the relevant law in the same was it could decline to apply any applicable law not deriving from the FMP treaty - but that's not a matter of sovereignty but of miscarriage of justice.

...and you have a 'Kippers (which is to say not entirely factual) view of the relationship between the EU and its member states. The ECJ has no army, nor even bailiffs.

Unpacking this:

EU law is enforceable in the courts of the member states; one of the (EU) treaty obligations is to make it so. That is accomplished by a provision in domestic law to that effect.

Where the meaning of EU law is acte clair (the meaning is clear on its face), or acte éclairé (the meaning has been clarified by ECJ caselaw), the domestic court will just get on and apply the EU law in question. Where it is neither, the domestic court will refer the question to the ECJ for determination of that issue; and, when it receives its answer, will then go on and apply it. If the losing party declines to obey, the winning party will use the procedures of the domestic court to enforce the decision.

This means that if I am a professional footballer whose English club refuses to release my registration even after I am out of contract, my remedy it to go to the English courts; after Bosman, it is acte éclairé that I am a free agent.

None of this is novel; it was in 1974 (the year before the UK's first in/out referendum) that Alf made his comment about the "incoming tide" of (then) EEC law.

The Swiss are required by Article 11 to provide an individual domestic remedy in its courts for those entitled to rights under the treaty. Where the rights are matters of EU law, then the Swiss court is required to "take account of" prior ECJ caselaw, into which category the Bosman ruling falls. In this context, "take account of" means follow unless there is very good reason why not.

Where there is ECJ caselaw subsequent to the treaty bearing upon its content, then the issue is referred to the joint committee set up under the FMP treaty to decide how it will be applied. AIUI where, within the EU, an issue would be referred to the ECJ, it is under the FMP treaty referred to the joint committee for determination; but then it is applied/enforced by the Swiss courts in the same way as EU law is applied/enforced byu the domestic courts within the EU.

It is true that the Swiss could ignore their legal obligations; but my impression (albeit my Swiss ancestry is rather less recent than yours) is that they are pretty law-abiding...
 

RobLev

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Perhaps due to a recognition that if 100% of people in the UK voted UKIP in a European election, the resulting 69 MEPs would be perpetually outvoted by the 96 German MEPs, leaving the remaining 601 MEPs to decide whatever they like without any reference at all to UK sentiment?

...

..and yet; the surge in UKIP support in the EP/local elections coincides with a pro-European surge in the opinion polling. Which suggests that a UKIP vote is far more a protest vote than an anti-EU vote.
 
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