[Law] Location of penalty for too many players

[Volun-selected]

This used be quite simple in my head until I started to think about it in detail. Regarding too many players on the pitch the Law is:
[LAWS] 3.3: A team may make an objection to the referee about the number of players in their opponents’ team. If a team has too many players, the referee orders the captain of that team to reduce the number appropriately. The score at the time of the objection remains unaltered. Sanction: Penalty[/LAWS]

I'm assuming the penalty falls under "while the ball is in play excluding a late charge after a kick" category so the location is at "the place of infringement."


Question 1 - Where is the place of infringement? The last place the overstocked team played the ball, where the opposing captain raised the complaint, where I'm standing when I count the 16th player, I ask the captain to spin round 5 times with their scrum cap pulled over their eyes and point to a spot... ?
My thoughts are this objection would likely be raised while the ball is dead or at a restart - I always coach my captains to do a quick head count at kick-off/restarts and after subs come on - so I'd award the penalty where the the restart would have been. This leads to my second question around what if it comes up during play?


Question 2 - The sideline and/or coaches suddenly shout out to their captain that their opposition have too many players. Captain then objects to me. Personally I'd be loathe to stop the game mid-flow (partly as I know coaches who may game this at a crucial spot and then 'apologize' afterwards for their error) so would play on until the game stops naturally or the ball is dead and then count?

After all captain, you had plenty of opportunity to check at the last restart/sub...

Would anyone stop play immediately?

Question 3 - during my play on, the offending team score and before I award the try a quick headcount does indeed reveal 16 shirts on the pitch so I order the captain to correct this. The law is clear that the "score at the time of the objection remains unaltered" - my emphasis. But the goal was after the objection - so can I call 'no try' and then point to the center of the 22 and give the penalty?

 

[Rich_NL]

Excellent question.

2 - I wouldn't stop immediately. Red 11 makes a break and heads over the 22 towards the tryline, followed by blue 15 (the captain) and you both 5m behind her, a nailed-on try. Blue 15 shouts "they have too many on the field sir!" Do you stop and restart with a scrum to red if it turns out blue was mistaken? On the basis of not checking until the ball is dead:

1 - I'd restart at the point the game would restart - at the mark, or on the 15m if a lineout, 22m if a dropout.

3 - In the example above, I like your solution. Similarly to the case that you could rescind the try in retrospect if an AR points out foul play, for example. But just checking it off your own bat, might paint you in the light of looking for reasons not to award the try and being biased against the team. I think it needs managing and communicating clearly!

 

[crossref]

1 Don't stop the game because someone is shouting
2 when the ball goes dead, and we count the players, PK is probably where I am standing
3 if the very last thing that happened was that the offending team had scored a try... bugger. Whatever you do next, for the next two minutes nothing good is going happen for the referee ...

 

[Volun-selected]

3 if the very last thing that happened was that the offending team had scored a try... bugger. Whatever you do next, for the next two minutes nothing good is going happen for the referee ...

This is the scenario I'm thinking - the team with 16 get a try so what to do next? (If it was the team with 15 - try stands, conversion attempt allowed, and the game restarts with a penalty.)

My current position is that I'd need to lead the erring captain to one side and make it clear that:

a) they've scored from an unfair position,
b) if I'd stopped the match at the complaint, they'd not have the try anyway,
c) I'm not going to remove scores (if any) from before the complaint, and
d) they have accidentally broken the LOTG and the sanction is a penalty.​

Hopefully by then I'd have decided where to award the penalty...

So, to Rich's point - I guess as always for us:

I think it needs managing and communicating clearly!

 

[Dickie E]

1 Don't stop the game because someone is shouting
2 when the ball goes dead, and we count the players, PK is probably where I am standing
3 if the very last thing that happened was that the offending team had scored a try... bugger. Whatever you do next, for the next two minutes nothing good is going happen for the referee ...

1. Agree
2. I'd give PK where play would next commence
3. What about if the complaint was after try but before conversion? Allow try but disallow conversion? I think that would a reasonable thing to do.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I agree that stopping the game in "full flow" would be dangerous. I guess We could interpret the Law regarding the score to When the captain spoke so the try is disallowed if the "claim" is valid". Another option would be to afdopt the "what would have happened had the game not stopped?" line. So, stop the game noting that a try would "Probably" have been scored or "A try probably would not have been scored". Check the numbers and if the claim is bogus, in the first scenario award the try. In the second award a Scrum to the Ball carrying side at the point where the ball carrier was at the time of the whistle. If the claim is correct awar the PK where the ball carrier was when the play was stopped.

However, under current law you could only award the scrum. So, play on and don't "award" the try until you have checked the numbers.

We would change our mind on a try if we found the TJ/ AR was holding his flag up or if foul play was called by an AR et so why not change a call where the team has benefitted?

 

[didds]

After all captain, you had plenty of opportunity to check at the last restart/sub...

so what happens when the 16th player runs on DURING play? (extreme example )

didds

 

[Volun-selected]

so what happens when the 16th player runs on DURING play? (extreme example )

Aagh - just when I thought I had it squared in my head! :smile:

Is the crux whether the law means/intends the opposing captain has to raise the objection first? If so, do we just quietly stand by while coaches slowly sneak on more and more players until the bench is empty? (To my fellow coaches out there - let's not try this!)

In my head, if the extra player was material - they trot on and immediately score/significantly impact support for the score in some way - then I guess we can hit them under 3.7:
[LAWS]3.7 If a player re-joins or a replacement joins the match without the referee’s permission and the referee believes the player did so to gain an advantage, the player is guilty of misconduct. Sanction: Penalty.[/LAWS]

Since the foul play occurred before the grounding I could decide not to award the try - but would make sure I make it clear to the scoring team that they have lost the score because of they made the mistake before I go on to signal no-try.

If they trot on, play for a while and then we notice the numbers are off later then I guess we're back to the original scenario.

If they trot on, and their team concede a score then the score stands. No reason the team playing inside the law should be penalized for the team playing outside the law. At the restart we'd address the extra player(s).

Does make me think about the hoo-ha around the ABs a couple of years back where the NZ 8s scored against the AU 7s:
https://www.rugbydump.com/news/new-zealand-snatch-7s-victory-with-8-men-on-the-field/

In that case the score stood but was referred for a disciplinary review... that came to nothing since they decided that it was "an inadvertent breach as a consequence of a number of factors relating to the management of replacements involving a number of parties". I wonder how many times we've had an extra player on at the lower levels and either never noticed or it was sorted before it was noticed?