Making a mark

[Davet]

Every body caused the problem. They ALL stopped.

And I still query "way too early".

The ball was in the air, I assume past the apex of its flight. 20 feet up, so a sub-second time lapse.

I am of the very strong opinion that to award a scrum to the side NOT in possession when you blow the whistle for safety reasons is simply making up Law on the hoof, and is NOT equitable. All players stopped, all created the issue, why pick on one?

 

[Taff]

.... when you blow the whistle for safety reasons is simply making up Law on the hoof, and is NOT equitable.?

Quite the opposite Davet; I'm the one suggesting that he stick to the law and call "mark" at "the same time". If he'd done what the lawbook says he should have done, there wouldn't be a "problem" and he could have had his mark - there just wouldn't be an issue. My Physics formulas have long gone (but I can see that 3 seconds is probably overestimated) so lets just assume that he called "mark" too soon; by doing this he's the root cause of "the problem".

... I am of the very strong opinion that to award a scrum to the side NOT in possession when you blow the whistle for safety reasons is simply making up Law on the hoof, and is NOT equitable.

But the game wasn't stopped for "safety".

I see it more as a "Scrum after any other stoppage" which is covered by 20.4(d).

 

[SimonSmith]

Every body caused the problem. They ALL stopped.

And I still query "way too early".

The ball was in the air, I assume past the apex of its flight. 20 feet up, so a sub-second time lapse.

I am of the very strong opinion that to award a scrum to the side NOT in possession when you blow the whistle for safety reasons is simply making up Law on the hoof, and is NOT equitable. All players stopped, all created the issue, why pick on one?

I'm not saying I agree but:
The argument would be that the reason everyone stopped was because of the erroneous call of "Mark". Proximate cause of the issue is the call, so he's the problem maker.

As I said, probably not my preferred solution, but I see the reasoning

 

[OB..]

Every body caused the problem. They ALL stopped.

No, that did not cause a problem. It is perfectly legal to stop. If the referee just stands there waiting, or even shouts "Play on", eventually somebody will wake up to the reality that play has not been stopped.

And I still query "way too early".

The ball was in the air, I assume past the apex of its flight. 20 feet up, so a sub-second time lapse.

Zeno's paradox does not help. Let's just assume that the ball was sufficiently far away for even you to agree the call was too early.

I am of the very strong opinion that to award a scrum to the side NOT in possession when you blow the whistle for safety reasons is simply making up Law on the hoof, and is NOT equitable. All players stopped, all created the issue, why pick on one?

I don't see where there is any danger, so I agree with Taff that it would be "any other stoppage". If the Blue 15 does eventually catch the ball, why should his team benefit from his error just because the referee blew his whistle after the catch?

 

[crossref]

- the potential danger is someone getting clobbered when they are not expecting it, perhaps not even seeing it coming..
- if there is no danger then on those odd occasions when everyone really does stops, I am in favour of blowing the whistle, for reasons above.. waiting for one person to come to life and steal the show is correct in principle -- but having tried it, it doesn't feel right, and is difficult to sell

Plus - when eveyone stops are you quite SURE you know why everyone has stopped? Is there someone on the other side of that maul or behind you spouting blood? Or a dog on the pitch? Or a fight going on behind you ?

 

[Phil E]

Perhaps the problem for the referee was in not shouting "play on" early enough.

As soon as the defender called "mark" with the ball still way up in the air, the ref should have shouted "play on, no mark", before the defender caught it.

Then everyone would have known what was going on...........and carried on!

Just a thought.

 

[Taff]

Perhaps the problem for the referee was in not shouting "play on" early enough. As soon as the defender called "mark" with the ball still way up in the air, the ref should have shouted "play on, no mark", before the defender caught it.

There's nothing to stop the catcher shouting mark again mind, ie he's not limited to just one shout.

My point is that if he realised the error of his ways and shouted mark again but the 2nd one was "at the same time" as he caught the ball, there wouldn't be a problem - he's just earn't himself a mark.

 

[Phil E]

There's nothing to stop the catcher shouting mark again mind, ie he's not limited to just one shout.

So the ball is way up there.

Defender get underneath it and starts shouting "mark, mark, mark, mark, mark, mark, mark" until he catches it. :chin:

 

[Taff]

So the ball is way up there. Defender get underneath it and starts shouting "mark, mark, mark, mark, mark, mark, mark" until he catches it. :chin:

Sounds really daft I agree, but there's nothing in the book preventing him from from doing just that.

Most people know they've got to shout "at the same time" though - don't they?

 

[crossref]

Sounds daft I know, but there's nothing in the book preventing him from from doing just that. Most people know they've got to shout "at the same time" - don't they? :chin:

just self consicousness :smile:

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

shouting "mark, mark, mark, mark, mark, mark, mark" until he catches it. :chin:

Sounds like a dog with a hair lip!

 

[Taff]

just self consicousness :smile:

Exactly. Just because the lawbook allows you to make a fool of yourself - it doesn't make it compulsory. :biggrin:

 

[Phil E]

Exactly. Just because the lawbook allows you to make a fool of yourself - it isn't compulsory. :biggrin:

Back to leggings again

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

So the ball is way up there.

Defender get underneath it and starts shouting "mark, mark, mark, mark, mark, mark, mark" until he catches it. :chin:

I think I prefer MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...............................KER!!!!!!!!!!!!:biggrin:

 

[B52 REF]

the law side of my brain agrees with 0B-shout play on, if not scrum non-catcher put in, the equity side says just award the mark, have a word , equity trumps law. Incidentally i seem to get this a lot in my youth games and invariably the kids evenyually play on when exhorted to do so without safety issues (the catcher may get tackled but so what). Also often get novice catcher not shouting mark till reminded to by his mates -if he does so pretty quickly i award the mark (equity) if takes too long or runs i shout play on.

 

[Davet]

Calls Mark less than a second before catches ball.
Catches ball
Silence
Ref - "Play on! Play on!

After game
Coach "by the way, why didn't you allow that mark?"
Ref "he was half a second or so too early, he must call 'at the same time'"
Coach - "yeah, I can see you're a stickler for law, sir!"

 

[Lex Hipkins]

I was always coached that the catcher should 'put a name on the ball' so that it is clear to team mates that it is you and you alone who is catching this one ...

.. what if your name is 'Mark'? :biggrin:

 

[OB..]

Calls Mark less than a second before catches ball.
Catches ball
Silence
Ref - "Play on! Play on!

After game
Coach "by the way, why didn't you allow that mark?"
Ref "he was half a second or so too early, he must call 'at the same time'"
Coach - "yeah, I can see you're a stickler for law, sir!"

22 feet per second is 15 mph, which is quite reasonable. That gives a player plenty of time to get to the catcher from 22 feet away.

You are salami slicing again and I don't buy it. There has to be a point at which even you would accept that the call was too early. Let's deal with that instead of mocking the concept of an early call.

 

[chopper15]

A player with one foot on the 22m line or behind it . . . ". ( on, as in not above?)

"The player must make a clean catch direct from an opponent’s kick and at the same time shout “Mark”

Would appreciate a recap., please.

During one of last year's internationals, Shane Williams I think, jumped, fielded the ball over his 22, shouted mark and promptly landed in touch still holding the ball.

What did the ref give, or what should he have given?

 

[Davet]

He should have awarded the mark.

The ball was cleanly caught inside the players 22.
The mark was called before the ball was in touch.