[In-goal] Maul moving back and forth over goal line

[Huck2Spit]

Yellow wins a defensive lineout on their own 5meter line. Pass goes back to yellow teammate who's in FOP and he attempts a kick. It's charged down by blue then caught by another yellow player with one foot in goal the other in FOP (so far brought into goal by blue). Quickly a maul (or not a maul since its kind of in goal) forms. Yellow and drive forward into FOP then are driven back back in goal by blue. Ball carrier goes to ground and touch ball down in goal.
So is it a 5 meter scrum or drop out 22?

 

[Jarrod Burton]

Since the maul exits the in-goal area and then re-enters with yellow in possession, I'd award a 5m scrum to blue as yellow take it back in.

 

[Dickie E]

Since the maul exits the in-goal area and then re-enters with yellow in possession, I'd award a 5m scrum to blue as yellow take it back in.

agree

 

[Jarrod Burton]

As a maul can't form or exist in goal, at what stage does it become a maul? Surely once the players are clear of in-goal, but as the maul doesn't exist until all the bodies are clear of the goal line, could an arguement for obstruction be reasonable if the BC has a couple of team mates in front of them at the moment the pseudo maul crosses the line and becomes a maul?

 

[Huck2Spit]

I awarded a 5 meter blue scrum. But the yellow team coach went on such a rant about it (can't have a maul in goal...) I questioned my call.

 

[Dickie E]

As a maul can't form or exist in goal, at what stage does it become a maul? Surely once the players are clear of in-goal, but as the maul doesn't exist until all the bodies are clear of the goal line, could an arguement for obstruction be reasonable if the BC has a couple of team mates in front of them at the moment the pseudo maul crosses the line and becomes a maul?

But how could the ball carrier's team mates legally get in front of him? The only way I can think of is by working the ball towards the back of the maul thingy. That takes time. Re would/should blow it up as unplaybale well before that.

 

[Jarrod Burton]

But how could the ball carrier's team mates legally get in front of him? The only way I can think of is by working the ball towards the back of the maul thingy. That takes time. Re would/should blow it up as unplaybale well before that.

I was more thinking of the way a maul forms from a kick, with a BC and tackler, then one, two or more from either side come in for support and the BC or ball filters back before the push comes on and the "maul" moves out into the FOP.

I awarded a 5 meter blue scrum. But the yellow team coach went on such a rant about it (can't have a maul in goal...) I questioned my call.

I think you made the correct call, regardless of whether it was a maul or not, yellow carried the ball into the FOP and then carried it in-goal and made it dead, scrum blue.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I think you made the correct call, regardless of whether it was a maul or not, yellow carried the ball into the FOP and then carried it in-goal and made it dead, scrum blue.

So do I.

Initially, Blue put the ball in goal - "charged down by blue then caught by another yellow player with one foot in goal"

If yellow think quickly here and take the ball to ground right now its a drop out 22m

Once they push it back into the FoP, that ends and when they take it back again and its grounded, Scrum 5m blue ball.

 

[crossref]

As a maul can't form or exist in goal, at what stage does it become a maul? Surely once the players are clear of in-goal, but as the maul doesn't exist until all the bodies are clear of the goal line,

wouldn't it be the location of the ball carrier that matters? If he's in the FOP it's a maul, if he's in goal it's a ..... a... mauly-thing

 

[OB..]

wouldn't it be the location of the ball carrier that matters? If he's in the FOP it's a maul, if he's in goal it's a ..... a... mauly-thing

Agree.

A maul ends when "the ball is on or over the goal line." (Badly phrased. I presume it means "crosses the goal line into in-goal".) One can infer therefore that a non-maul in in-goal becomes a fully formed maul when the ball crosses back into the FoP. Because it is fully formed, we don't have to examine the process of formation, so the question of obstruction does not arise.

Lots of assumptions involved here, but I agree the 5m scrum to the attacking side makes most sense (provided the ball came back into the field of play).

 

[crossref]

in the normal course of events we start in the FoP with a maul, the ball crosses the line and now we have a mauly-thing, and I think we all see this often enough (nearly every game? ) to be very confident about how to ref it.

what's more difficult to be precise about is the scenario in the OP -- we start with the ball in goal and a maully-like-thing forms, which is then pushed out into the FoP -- when this happens, when the ball crosses the line does this maully-like-thing suddenly become an actual maul, with all that entails (off-side lines spring into place, players must refrain from collapsing it, no side entry etc).

It's sort of odd for a maul to spring into existience, already containing a dozen players, players who may be on all sides of the ball, having not joined it from their own side (as it was in goal when it formed, so they didin't have to)


I think it's quite confusing for everyone and quite tricky to referee.

 

[didds]

if its a mauly thing in goal and the ball isn't obviously immediately available wouldn't an approach be to whistle it immediately?

If only because its likely to create flash points, particularly niggly games, as people potentially enter from all directions (no offside/normal existing etc)... and others take exception being not as quite thinking etc ?

didds

 

[crossref]

if its a amulyt thing in goal and the ball isn't obviously immediately available wouldn;t an approach be to whistle it immediately?

If only because its likely to create flash points, particularly niggly games, as people potentially enter from all directions (no iffside/nomaul existing etc)... and others take exception being not as quite thinking etc ?

didds

yes - but in this case I am thinking it all happens very quickly.

plus - if he'd blown right at the start before the ball left the in-goal then we stil have a tricky scenario: it's the unusual one we discused a few weeks ago,of the defenders being held up in goal, and what's the restart for that??

 

[didds]

ball introduced to in goal by attackers not in the act of attempting to score. ball went dead in goal effectively. 22 do - seems reasonable enough.

didds

 

[Pegleg]

Yellow wins a defensive lineout on their own 5meter line. Pass goes back to yellow teammate who's in FOP and he attempts a kick. It's charged down by blue then caught by another yellow player with one foot in goal the other in FOP (so far brought into goal by blue). Quickly a maul (or not a maul since its kind of in goal) forms. Yellow and drive forward into FOP then are driven back back in goal by blue. Ball carrier goes to ground and touch ball down in goal.
So is it a 5 meter scrum or drop out 22?

I'm assuming the Blue player charging down in is the FOP so the ball was put into in goal by Blue.

There is NO maul. Whether it's "Hokey Cokey" time or not a maul cannot exist in goal.

Yellow has the ball at the start of the "wrestling match" does he keep it throughout? If so HE took it into in goal so its scrum 5 Blue ball.

 

[didds]

I'm assuming the Blue player charging down in is the FOP so the ball was put into in goal by Blue.

There is NO maul. Whether it's "Hokey Cokey" time or not a maul cannot exist in goal.

Yellow has the ball at the start of the "wrestling match" does he keep it throughout? If so HE took it into in goal so its scrum 5 Blue ball.

surely yellow didn;t take it in goal? He had a foot in goal when he caught the charge down. so blue put it in goal, 22 d/o

didds

 

[RobLev]

surely yellow didn;t take it in goal? He had a foot in goal when he caught the charge down. so blue put it in goal, 22 d/o

didds

But in the OP (which Pegleg commented on):

Yellow and drive forward into FOP then are driven back back in goal by blue

...Yellow brought it out and then carried it back in again. Blue 5m scrum.

 

[didds]

yes. any my entire premise was one a mauly type thing was created in goal just blow to avoid any flare ups.

Other than TBH in such a situation you could "get away" with any decision you chose to make.

didds

 

[Womble]

yes. any my entire premise was one a mauly type thing was created in goal just blow to avoid any flare ups.

Other than TBH in such a situation you could "get away" with any decision you chose to make.

didds

Can you? As a player I had the knowledge that you couldn't have a ruck or maul in goal ! Playing against Stourbridge 20 years ago, I ran around the back of a mauly thing ripped the ball off of the opposition player and put the ball down. Sir pinged me for offside !!!!

 

[didds]

Can you? As a player I had the knowledge that you couldn't have a ruck or maul in goal ! Playing against Stourbridge 20 years ago, I ran around the back of a mauly thing ripped the ball off of the opposition player and put the ball down. Sir pinged me for offside !!!!

of course you can.

potentially. you can blow the whistle any time you like.

didds