McCaw "stamp"?

SimonSmith


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There seems to be a subtle distinction there that I do not understand. I have no sympathy for using boots on players.

It is a long time since I saw Rob Fidler play - probably before the law changed in 1996 !

Here's how I see the difference:
"Boots on players" connotes a deliberate targeting of a player.

"Good old fashioned rucking" involves driving forward with no regard for who or what is on the ground. Anything there is collateral damage, rather than being targeted. In the good old days, that was how Scotland played - fast, hard, low rucking that generated good quality go-forward ball.
 

Davet

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If you can't ruck ball killers out of the way, then I advocate dragging them out by their arms or legs or whatever bit you can get hold of them by (except the head and neck of course). Unlike rucking players, dragging them out of a ruck perfectly legal.

I advocate refs displaying zero tolerance for players slowing the ball down by lying on the wrong side.

Ping 'em - straight away. Then next time YC and ping. Only reason not to YC for a 2nd or subsequent team offonce would be when the player is clearly trapped. But trapped or not Ping 'em. If you don't being pinged when trapped then best not to let them trap you!
 

OB..


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No-one has ever died, ended up in a wheelchair or been seriously injured from a few tag marks on the back or arms from being rucked, unlike from a collapsed scrum or a badly executed tackle.

The objection to boots on bodies was largely a nanny state, PC over-reaction in the mid 1990's because in some quarters it was thought to be not a good look for the game; Mummies and Daddies might not like it when they see Little Johnny being raked back with a boot, and they might be dissuaded from allowing him to play with the other boys as a result.
I don't think exaggeration etc helps your case at all.

If you can't ruck ball killers out of the way, then I advocate dragging them out by their arms or legs or whatever bit you can get hold of them by (except the head and neck of course). Unlike rucking players, dragging them out of a ruck perfectly legal.

(OB.. - yes, yes we know about Ken Catchpole and Colin Meads. That was a Maul not a Ruck, and it IS illegal to drag a player out of a Maul)
I don't see that the difference between a maul and a ruck mattered to Ken Catchpole. It was dangerous play whichever way you slice it.

One of my principal objections is that it means players are taking the law into their own hands, and they are not properly qualified to do so. A referee might judge that a player is trapped; a player doesn't care, he just see an opportunity.

I don't expect we will ever agree on this, so I will just repeat that I see no value at all to the game in letting players use boots on other players.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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McCaw is an honorable man and a clean player. Drawing a comparison between he and a thug like Ashworth (remember, I have actually played against the latter!) is despicable.

I expect better from you, regardless of your inane use of a smiley.

I didn't compare RMC with John Ashworth - the inference is one you've drawn. I used the JPR/Ashworth episode as an example of players meting out their own justice in the "good old days of rucking" an era that you harked (fondly?) back to. I could just as easily used Geoff Wheel booting Roger Uttley in the face or Steve Finnane breaking Graeme Price's jaw and I'm almost certain the Welsh and Aussie contributors would have not reacted as you did.

I like RMC as I liked Jones, Kronfeld & Mourie (a contemporary of Ashworth who goes to see how JPR is as he leaves the field) etc. My use of a smiley, inane or not, was meant to lighten the mood but as is usual you've slightly gone off on one.

I'm not sure if I'm on your list of wind up merchants if so put me on ignore - I won't reciprocate as I value your contributions to the forum.

Anyway as the man says "Chillax"
 
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Andy P

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I have seen plenty of teams lose games when they decided to do player management rather than play and the opposition have played the referee and the game.

quick, clear and strong refereeing should surley do away with the need for it.

as for RM, love watching him as a player. In the past he was continually to play in a zone past legal and got away with it, hence he got managed by players as the referees weren't.
 

Iron_Lung


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If you can't ruck ball killers out of the way, then I advocate dragging them out by their arms or legs or whatever bit you can get hold of them by (except the head and neck of course). Unlike rucking players, dragging them out of a ruck perfectly legal.

(OB.. - yes, yes we know about Ken Catchpole and Colin Meads. That was a Maul not a Ruck, and it IS illegal to drag a player out of a Maul)

Not sure I agree with you here Ian. I think that dragging a player out of a ruck can be dangerous if there are body parts caught, particularly if their head is trapped in behind someone's leg or something. I think there is a real danger of getting players twisted the wrong way and injured. I think that rucking would be much safer than allowing players to be dragged out of a ruck. :)

If I see players getting dragged forward (by the defence), I'll usually have a word and if they continue to do it penalize them under 16.3(c) for intentionally collapsing the ruck.

As for what started the argument, I'd call it a reminder that the player is in the way (something done to RMC/Smith/Pocock and many other 7's on numerous occasions) and warrants nothing more than a quiet word on the run about being careful about boots on bodies. However that's international level. At local level I'd consider a stern warning to the player involved to make sure it doesn't become a flashpoint.
 

Ian_Cook


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Not sure I agree with you here Ian. I think that dragging a player out of a ruck can be dangerous if there are body parts caught, particularly if their head is trapped in behind someone's leg or something. I think there is a real danger of getting players twisted the wrong way and injured. I think that rucking would be much safer than allowing players to be dragged out of a ruck. :).

A few years ago, I saw this happen in a club game while I was standing on the sideline supporting my old club side, Riwaka. A couple of visiting players detached from a ruck and retired, looking as though they were going to rejoin, but they didn't. Instead, they went behind the HMF and dragged out the tackler (who hadn't rolled away). The odd thing was that the two players came from opposite sides of the ruck, which made it look planned. That was confirmed a few minutes later at another ruck. The SH called "blocker" and two forwards came back and dragged our player out. The referee said something about it to their Captain. While I didn't hear clearly what he said, I did hear part of the reply, ".........their players aren't rolling away". IMO, he was inferring that the referee wasn't making them roll away quickly enough.

The referee seemed to get a lot more proactive about players rolling away from tackles after that. maybe that was what they were trying to do; send a message to the referee.
 

SimonSmith


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Not sure I agree with you here Ian. I think that dragging a player out of a ruck can be dangerous if there are body parts caught, particularly if their head is trapped in behind someone's leg or something. I think there is a real danger of getting players twisted the wrong way and injured. I think that rucking would be much safer than allowing players to be dragged out of a ruck. :)

If I see players getting dragged forward (by the defence), I'll usually have a word and if they continue to do it penalize them under 16.3(c) for intentionally collapsing the ruck.

As for what started the argument, I'd call it a reminder that the player is in the way (something done to RMC/Smith/Pocock and many other 7's on numerous occasions) and warrants nothing more than a quiet word on the run about being careful about boots on bodies. However that's international level. At local level I'd consider a stern warning to the player involved to make sure it doesn't become a flashpoint.

Any moment OB is going to reference Ken Catchpole
 

winchesterref


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The incident is something that will probably be let go at international level and a couple below, but would be pinged by me if I saw it at level 10 as a means to prevent a more likely escalation. It shouldn't be different, but the elite game is different and so with my limited experience I guess the management changes.
 

OB..


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Any moment OB is going to reference Ken Catchpole
I did so earlier. Ian saw no problem.

In my game on Saturday a player got a red card for a stamp. Dead right too.
 

Cave Dweller

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One the reason why I liked this forum in the first place was because, when I joined it seven years ago, it didn't have any wind up merchants

Sadly, that is no longer the case, and hasn't been for the last three or four years.

Getting wind up over words on a screen? 3 or 4 years ago it was called teasing and we all had a laugh. These days people commit suicide over it... What have become of the world oh dear
 

Ian_Cook


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Lightning? What has your sex life got to do with it?

What are you talking about?

I was being cynical about the speed with which you notice things. The article you posted was from 2009; hardly relevant to current events, especially this thread.
 

Cave Dweller

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What are you talking about?

I was being cynical about the speed with which you notice things. The article you posted was from 2009; hardly relevant to current events, especially this thread.

Cool story bro. Now go make me a sandwich.
 
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