McCaw's Trick are not that hard to spot!

[AiseaT39]

I finally got a chance to watch McCaw in action live at Eden Park when the ABs played Tonga in the opening match. It is really the same as we see it on TV or the internet.

McCaw obstructs the opposition at the scrum, ruck, maul, he runs across in front or holds defenders when the ball come out of set pieces. He always sets up in front of the chase at kicked ball to slow or obstruct them and give his team mate enough time to catch the ball.

He is very clever/cunning but not hard at all to spot.

What do you think?

 

[Dixpat]

McCaw obstructs the opposition at the scrum, ruck, maul, he runs across in front or holds defenders when the ball come out of set pieces. He always sets up in front of the chase at kicked ball to slow or obstruct them and give his team mate enough time to catch the ball.

He is very clever/cunning but not hard at all to spot.

What to you think?

That you & many others are paranoid about McCaw

 

[AiseaT39]

That you & many others are paranoid about McCaw

I am amazed at how much he gets away with in a match. Same as how front rowers who don't bind correctly and end up pulling the scrum down and the referees don't see it. These things are not hard to spot at least for me. The referees also have the assistants as well. So, why is it so hard for an international referee to see these?

 

[Dixie]

I am amazed at how much he gets away with in a match. Same as how front rowers who don't bind correctly and end up pulling the scrum down and the referees don't see it. These things are not hard to spot at least for me. The referees also have the assistants as well. So, why is it so hard for an international referee to see these?

You are assuming that they don't see them. I take the view that you don't get that high without being a very good referee indeed, and a very large part of being such a good referee is contextual judgement. I reckon that if any elite referee pinged even half of what he saw, he'd never get another game at that level. It's a televisual entertainment product where the paying public doesn't want to watch a referee ping the players off the park. Good refs who don't understand that never get the opportunity to become very good refs indeed.

 

[Bryan]

What to [sic] you think?

I dont think he is any different than other openside flankers around the world. Brussouw, Pocock, Warburton, Moody, O'Brien and Dusautoir are all in the same boat in terms of their roles on the field. McCaw seems to get more attention b/c:

1. He has been doing it at such a high level for so long
2. He is captain of one of the most successful teams of all time (in terms of winning %) and is under a lot of scrutiny due to his success

All other flankers have the exact same objective. I dont see them any different to the ones I referee in the game, other than the ones that I referee are relatively slower.

In the recent 3N I actually was surprised Rollers didnt put him in the bin during the SA match (and based on McCaw's body language I think he was too!) but I really dont see him any differently than other high-quality #7s.

All flankers obstruct at the scrum.
All flankers run lines across defenders at kicks in general play.
All flankers post as guards at rucks.

It's not just McCaw.

 

[AiseaT39]

You are assuming that they don't see them. So why don't they do it then if they see it? lol I take the view that you don't get that high without being a very good referee indeed, and a very large part of being such a good referee is contextual judgement. Agree...it is only part political. Some great referees won't make it to the top but an ok referee with political ties can easily make it. I reckon that if any elite referee pinged even half of what he saw, he'd never get another game at that level. It's a televisual entertainment product where the paying public doesn't want to watch a referee ping the players off the park. Agree...start with warnings and then a Yellow Card, then you either see it stop all together or at least decreased to almost none.Good refs who don't understand that never get the opportunity to become very good refs indeed.

Cheers!

 

[Account Deleted]

How high is Hawaii level 2?

 

[Ian_Cook]

I am amazed at how much he gets away with in a match. Same as how front rowers who don't bind correctly and end up pulling the scrum down and the referees don't see it. These things are not hard to spot at least for me. The referees also have the assistants as well. So, why is it so hard for an international referee to see these?

The trouble with people like you is that you get a bee in your bonnet about one player, whom you are predisposed to perceive as the quintessential devil incarnate. Therefore, you become "target fixated" that one player,!

Try doing what you have done here with any other player, particularly another player in a similar role like David Pocock or Heinrich Brussouw. Watch them for the whole 80 minutes (or as best you can with the TV feed you get).

What you will find is that they do exactly the same things that McCaw does, and you'll realise that the reason that you didn't notice it before, is because you were too busy watching McCaw.

 

[SimonSmith]

McCaw is supreme at his art.

Back when we actually had a back row worthy of the name, complaints were raised about the Calder/Jeffrey/White combination and their illegalities. Been happening since time immemorial, will happen as long as we have the game. He's just better at it than most.

 

[AiseaT39]

How high is Hawaii level 2?

Higher than some of the international referees we have witnessed so far!

The trouble with people like you is that you get a bee in your bonnet about one player, whom you are predisposed to perceive as the quintessential devil incarnate. Therefore, you become "target fixated" that one player,!

Try doing what you have done here with any other player, particularly another player in a similar role like David Pocock or Heinrich Brussouw. Watch them for the whole 80 minutes (or as best you can with the TV feed you get).

What you will find is that they do exactly the same things that McCaw does, and you'll realise that the reason that you didn't notice it before, is because you were too busy watching McCaw.

I don't have to be target fixated as you suggested Ian. I will utilise my assistants as a team of 3 using the leading & trailing method. We should be able to pick up the craps that happen around and behind the scene...McCaw, Pocock, or Brussouw, none will get away with infringing with the spirit of the law of the game which promotes safety, contestability, & continutity.

McCaw is supreme at his art. Agree...and it shouldn't be ignored.

Back when we actually had a back row worthy of the name, complaints were raised about the Calder/Jeffrey/White combination and their illegalities. Been happening since time immemorial, will happen as long as we have the game. He's just better at it than most.

Definitely not better than my referee team.

Cheers!

 

[Mike Whittaker]

I dont think he is any different than other openside flankers around the world. Brussouw, Pocock, Warburton, Moody, O'Brien and Dusautoir are all in the same boat in terms of their roles on the field. McCaw seems to get more attention b/c:

It's not just McCaw.

Agreed.

However, when we go to such lengths to point out the mistakes that referees make in their games at the highest level why do we appear to condone them not penalising the best No 7s in the world for what they do so effectively?

Personally I think all the refs at the top level are quite brilliant relative to the mere mortals I watch week in week out so in no way criticising them. Just wondering, what do we want our referees to do?

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

How high is Hawaii level 2?

Hawaii level 2 = Magner's League:biggrin::wales:

 

[AiseaT39]

Hawaii level 2 = Magner's League:biggrin::wales:

Since I evaluate my own perfomance...I give myself a very high grade just to satisfy the question posted by the Wales referee.

Have you learnt anything from my inputs here or you're too far up there that we don't even exist?

What kind of stupid question is that anyways? Next thing you will be telling us you're superior since you're a doctor or judge or because you're from Wales, NZ, or England.

I am glad that the Rugby Law Book is much smaller and less complicated than my dog grooming text book.

 

[Dixie]

What kind of stupid question is that anyways? Next thing you will be telling us you're superior since you're a doctor or judge or because you're from Wales, NZ, or England.

Well, obviously the English are superior, having developed the arrogance that goes with being the dominant partner in the force that ruled the worthwhile bits of the world for hundreds of years. Even you Yanks, who've only been top dog for less than a century, have gone a long towards developing the same arrogance. That's why other countries routinely hate us both. :biggrin:

But you are right about refereeing level. Some of our most valued contributors referee (or advise/assess) at lowly levels. Doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about. Some of the best sports coaches in the world never really made it as sportsmen. There's a world of difference between theory and practice, and the knowledgeable theoretician can help make an expert practitioner even better.

 

[Bryan]

Agreed.

1. However, when we go to such lengths to point out the mistakes that referees make in their games at the highest level why do we appear to condone them not penalising the best No 7s in the world for what they do so effectively?

2. Personally I think all the refs at the top level are quite brilliant relative to the mere mortals I watch week in week out so in no way criticising them. Just wondering, what do we want our referees to do?

1. Most of the stuff highlighted by me is "off the ball" stuff that either i. isnt material enough to warrant a PK or ii. is so subtle that it's not clear-n-obvious to the referee watching everything else (e.g. managing offside players at a kick instead of looking for the onside player running a line across defenders). Either you manage it as referees / ARs, or you go for the statement PK early when it's deliberate and clear to everyone.

2. Stick to the "clear and obvious". Tracking one player in a game, on video, from the comfort of an armchair, is NOT clear and obvious. One thing to think about with referees is simply bringing up their level of awareness i.e. they wont necessarily penalize, but they will recognize a player's intent and manage (cover their ass) if they have to PK later on. If, after a game, you're getting blank looks from them when you ask them "did you notice..." then that's where you want to think about "what did your ARs tell you?" or "what are you looking for at the scrum as the ball emerges?". If a referee says "Yes, I saw this, but I chose to do X or manage it in Y fashion" that's a hell of a lot better than "Mcwho? Didnt notice him".

 

[Mike Whittaker]

1. Most of the stuff highlighted by me is "off the ball" stuff that either i. isnt material enough to warrant a PK or ii. is so subtle that it's not clear-n-obvious to the referee watching everything else (e.g. managing offside players at a kick instead of looking for the onside player running a line across defenders). Either you manage it as referees / ARs, or you go for the statement PK early when it's deliberate and clear to everyone.

But are we doing enough to encourage grass roots refs to 'manage' this situation? I certainly always encourage them to look for patterns and to put matters into a context rather than just deal with isolated events. Difficult, but they usually get the idea - well some do!

2. Stick to the "clear and obvious". Tracking one player in a game, on video, from the comfort of an armchair, is NOT clear and obvious. One thing to think about with referees is simply bringing up their level of awareness i.e. they wont necessarily penalize, but they will recognize a player's intent and manage (cover their ass) if they have to PK later on. If, after a game, you're getting blank looks from them when you ask them "did you notice..." then that's where you want to think about "what did your ARs tell you?" or "what are you looking for at the scrum as the ball emerges?". If a referee says "Yes, I saw this, but I chose to do X or manage it in Y fashion" that's a hell of a lot better than "Mcwho? Didnt notice him".

Bit confused here as if you don't notice McWho then he may not be obvious. But certainly if you are high enough to have an AR then they should be helping you. The vast majority of refs do not have an official AR so it is man management again.

 

[Bryan]

Bit confused here as if you don't notice McWho then he may not be obvious. But certainly if you are high enough to have an AR then they should be helping you. .

My point was that if you as an observer notice him in the same game you're watching the referee i.e. you have identified the pattern/trend but the referee hasnt, then this is where you want to start questioning the referee's "game awareness".

The vast majority of refs do not have an official AR so it is man management again.

I dont see how having an AR or not makes a difference in man-management. Either the team of three spots the trends, or the referee does it alone. You just have an extra set of eyes / brain that might help. The process remains the same.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Bryan, your first point is my first point - I think.

The reference to man management was that managing the unofficial AR comes into the equation - and we know they can become useful when involved or a negative when upset - hopefully the appointed ones will be a plus!

But I think we are in agreement on patterns and awareness

 

[Bryan]

Bryan, your first point is my first point - I think.

The reference to man management was that managing the unofficial AR comes into the equation - and we know they can become useful when involved or a negative when upset - hopefully the appointed ones will be a plus!

But I think we are in agreement on patterns and awareness

Agreed on all points, apart from the unofficial AR; I'm only speaking about the appointed ones! The poor guy that drew the bad straw for his team to run touch only has to stick the flag up; there's little "management" from me apart from "Thanks; I'll buy your first one in the bar after the game!".

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Agreed on all points, apart from the unofficial AR; I'm only speaking about the appointed ones! The poor guy that drew the bad straw for his team to run touch only has to stick the flag up; there's little "management" from me apart from "Thanks; I'll buy your first one in the bar after the game!".

And I wonder why that approach does not surprise me...