McCaw's Trick are not that hard to spot!

[Mike Whittaker]

Firstly I make an apology for being an old fart who doesn't know his ARs from his TJ!

The only point I have sought to make is that I think (my view only) that a referee should make an attempt to have a chat with his Flag Wavers before the game just to find out who they are and what they can bring to the game with you. I call that a team of 3 however you look at it. There just may be an asset there that can be used, but if it is just to wave when the ball crosses the line, so be it. I have said that not all one hears should be believed - "I will have you know I am a qualified referee!" being a cause for alarm bells!!

What the referee does with the info is up to him and clearly the L6 ref who sent of a player on the say so of a highly experienced but unappointed flag waver was wrong! But the information as to what had gone on would have helped him progress the game, I would think. The player would have known that there was more than one pair of eyes watching him. (I don't know whether a citing would have been possible??)

But as I say to all referees that I watch, I am only one pair of eyes with one perspective and one voice. It is for the referee to listen, discuss with his coach and decide what to take on board and what to discard. I repeat that here.

 

[Dixie]

Interesting feedforward there Dixie.

IF there had been a systenm in place to officiallt appoint you once you were at the ground (ie 20 minutes before KO say), would the home club have been billed as I understand they are for refs? (If I have that wrong i apologise . Just interested.

As I understand the billing mechanism, Societies do indeed try to bill for any appointment. At the unexpected end of things, the tension here is perhaps best illustrated when a Society ref who is a member at a local club is asked to act as a club ref for Junior games on Sunday. The Society has traditionally wanted the ref to alert his Society that he's doing the game so he could get the more comprehensive Society insurance coverage; but if he did so, the Society tried to get its pound of flesh from the unsuspecting club for the use of its own club ref. This seems to be much less an issue for the last few years, as Club refs and Society refs are now covered by the same insurance package.

To answer your question, I don't believe it would be fair to have an AR on one touchline and a TJ on the other, and I don't think the Society would wish to be party to that. Societies have a pretty clear policy on AR appointment in England (they rarely do it below L.5, and typically only for certain cup games or difficult and contentious local derbies, often at youth level). So no - I wouldn't call them, and if I did I doubt they's appoint. But if they did, I can't say whether or not they'd charge.

 

[Account Deleted]

There is another video too. I have to find some video to support my report to satisfy your investigative energy. Would you come down to my level so we can have a discussion? It is very hard for anyone to make it up there to have a conversation with you...it's too dark & dull up there.



It seems to me that you have refereed for many years. I will be surprised that you haven't come across a few players from different clubs who have a habit of knowingly infringing the laws & spirit of the game thus diadvantage and/or put the opponent in an unsafe and unfair situation.

I won't have to watch for one player. As a team of 3 using the lead & trail method, I will instruct the ARs to look for certain things to make sure players are safe and nobody gets away with illegal tactics.

I am willing to learn if you offer anything worth learning. I won't listen to you if you put too much energy trying to prove superiority without proof!

I have no superiority, nor have I claimed any. Please read posts properly. It is you,according to your postings who seems to know it all. I am a grassroots refs and will never be any more. I have reffed for a few years now and know that things are not as black and white as you seem to think.

Bye

 

[OB..]

But as I say to all referees that I watch, I am only one pair of eyes with one perspective and one voice. It is for the referee to listen, discuss with his coach and decide what to take on board and what to discard. I repeat that here.

I endorse that.

As an assessor, I see lots of referees, but no other assessor's reports. For a referee it is essentially the other way round. I just hope that somebody higher up the food chain is reconciling these two perspectives.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

As an assessor, I see lots of referees, but no other assessor's reports. For a referee it is essentially the other way round. I just hope that somebody higher up the food chain is reconciling these two perspectives.

During a couple of years coaching (but not higher up the food chain!) I tried to work with the referee to reconcile views. Amongst the data there were usually some common themes which could be addressed for 'work in progress' and included in reports to those overseeing. What they made of it, or what conclusions were drawn, was never divulged.

 

[Rushforth]

This is an excellent thread, even if the topic is no longer the main subject of discussion. If I were to quote the parts I agree with, I'd be busy for an hour or two and I intend to go to bed early, so I'll only add my tuppence as a very new and inexperienced referee.

Every referee should use the resources he (or she!) has, be it his knowledge of rugby and the laws, his brains, his fitness and experience in positioning, but similarly all should be aware that they will never see everything, because we all know that there are too many things to look at to look at them all at once.

I have just 6 adult games under my belt, but I do have 30+ years of rugby experience to help me. Yet the IRB1 referees course was an eye-opener. As another poster mentioned, if a referee were to blow his whistle for everything he sees, following the laws exactly yet with no discretion, the game would not be fun.

There is a balance, at all levels, between being strict and ensuring continuity of play and fair contest. That balance is different at all levels; I had a game last night where I was castigated by both sides for not seeing things (a la Bryce) in the ruck, but after the game neither team was unhappy with my approach: I mostly penalised only after having asked/told "Hands out" or "NO HANDS", and all knew I was being fair and equitable.

If a referee were to watch a single player for infringements, it would be trivial to find offences. But (McCaw and all other #7s in the world aside) we should at least to some degree presume innocence. Just imagine if we weren't lenient on not-straight at the line-out on windy days!

To paraphrase an old adage about soldiers:

The key qualities of a referee are his abilities to make correct decisions at every scrum, line-out, maul, ruck, tackle, pass, kick and catch.
But what about impartiality, safety, management, and "the spirit of rugby".
Well: those are assumed.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I have always thought the stance of the RFU on AR's is a somewhat flawed one.

Here I am, an appointed RFU referee, getting ready to ref Kings Bollege Bambridge OB v Keble Bollege Oxford OB, and I happen to spot an old chum, Chris White, retired IRB International Referee, standing on the sideline. I know that Chris is still fit, has kept up with all the Law changes since he retired, and will have no trouble keeping up with play in this grass-roots match

I ask him to run the touch, and he accepts.

5 min into the match, Red 5 flattens Blue 12 with a punch (which I don't see) Chris hangs flag.....

Oh shit!!! What do I do now?

 

[Drift]

I have always thought the stance of the RFU on AR's is a somewhat flawed one.

Here I am, an appointed RFU referee, getting ready to ref Kings Bollege Bambridge OB v Keble Bollege Oxford OB, and I happen to spot an old chum, Chris White, retired IRB International Referee, standing on the sideline. I know that Chris is still fit, has kept up with all the Law changes since he retired, and will have no trouble keeping up with play in this grass-roots match

I ask him to run the touch, and he accepts.

5 min into the match, Red 5 flattens Blue 12 with a punch (which I don't see) Chris hangs flag.....

Oh shit!!! What do I do now?

It is somewhat odd. If you get a "badged tj" over here when asking for someone and they have their myrugby ID card (it's a small credit card type thing with your name and qualifications on it) then this is generally good enough to take their opinion on the games.

 

[Rushforth]

(which I don't see) Chris hangs flag.....

Oh shit!!! What do I do now?

The most I have been asking of my TJs, of either side, is that they calm down anything "behind" me.

Tell them: If I am following the action, and there is any handbags behind me, please just yell "calm down <player>".

You have to take one position at the beginning (with regards to TJs - can become stricter obviously with respect to players and/or teams).

Either TJs do the touch only, OR they are BOTH "ARs". Anything inbetween can still be helpful, but in the same way as a TMO can be.

 

[dgilks]

It is somewhat odd. If you get a "badged tj" over here when asking for someone and they have their myrugby ID card (it's a small credit card type thing with your name and qualifications on it) then this is generally good enough to take their opinion on the games.

Yep. In Canberra, where there aren't ARs appointed to a match and a qualified and uniformed official agrees to run touch for an additional match, he or she is treated as an AR and is able to report foul play.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

"Accredited" rather than "Appointed" sounds logical. Clearly still important to have pre match chat to agree how it will work, especially if no comms available. Can't think of any obvious problems, but no doubt somebody will?

With current disorder in RFU it could possibly be agreed by 2015 RWC time.

 

[Mike Whittaker]

Here I am, an appointed RFU referee, getting ready to ref Kings Bollege Bambridge OB v Keble Bollege Oxford OB, and I happen to spot an old chum, Chris White, retired IRB International Referee, standing on the sideline. I know that Chris is still fit, has kept up with all the Law changes since he retired, and will have no trouble keeping up with play in this grass-roots match

I ask him to run the touch, and he accepts.

5 min into the match, Red 5 flattens Blue 12 with a punch (which I don't see) Chris hangs flag.....

Oh shit!!! What do I do now?

The temptation has to be to go along with everything Chris says and ensure his name is clearly on the report several times!
Sod the regulations - get yourself known!!

PS and on a serious note - the interests of SAFETY
Suppose Chris said to red card and you didn't - and the player then did serious damage.
No, I think there is a time for common sense which overrides all.