NatWest 6 Nations 2018 Championship - talking points

[Jolly Roger]

Predictable whinging from some quarters of the England supporters, disappointing that it has reached this Forum.

England lost the game because they lacked leadership and did not manage to maintain their composure, resorting to syndical, negative and foul play in the last quarter because they weren’t getting their own way, like petulant spoilt children. My teenage daughter observed after 60 mins that England were concentrating on cheering rather than concentrating on playing their game, a naive comment perhaps but bearing a significant element of truth.

As for NO’s interpretation of the breakdown, it is well known how individual referees manage certain elements of the game. Townsend and Barclay in particular will have studied NO’s management of the breakdown in great detail over the past week. The England team will have done the same but obviously did not learn from their studies: D-

If I had come on here complaining about the refereeing of last season’s Calcutta Cup match I would rightly have been laughed off the forum.

Perhaps looking at the game from the perspective of why the opposition won rather than why your team lost might bear a more positive and beneficial outcome. Just a thought.

 

[crossref]

Independently of who won or lost , Do YOU think NO had a good game or a poor game ?
Just a thought

 

[L'irlandais]

I think England have shown time and again that they are incapable of adapting to the referee. If you are been penalized for something you were not prepared for in training, stop this particular infringement straight away. It is unlikely the referee will change the way he is interpreting the Laws during the next 80 minutes.
Last year’s Italy game being a prime example, but far from the only exemple.


Do other Unions not provide tunnel cam footage?

 

[DocY]

An unrelated talking point from the Ireland Wales game: Halfpenny’s second penalty.

Personally, I thought this should have been an Irish penalty (and was just about the only contentious decision to go Wales’s way all game).

My take was: Biggar takes the ball and is tackled, on hitting the ground it goes towards the Irish DBL off an Irish foot (no C & O infringement in my view) then Biggar scoops it back in while still on the ground.

 

[Zebra1922]

Independently of who won or lost , Do YOU think NO had a good game or a poor game ?
Just a thought

My view is he had a poor game, a little inconsistent and some unclear decisions. I also thought WB had a poor game as well, not so much with his decisions he just didn't seem to assert the certainty he usually does. And I am a big fan of both of these referees normally, just shows even the best can have an off day. (I'm the opposite, even the below average can have a good day occasionally!)

Conversely, I'm usually not a fan of John Lacey but thought he had an excellent game in Ireland vs Wales.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

My view is he had a poor game, a little inconsistent and some unclear decisions. I also thought WB had a poor game as well, not so much with his decisions he just didn't seem to assert the certainty he usually does. And I am a big fan of both of these referees normally, just shows even the best can have an off day. (I'm the opposite, even the below average can have a good day occasionally!)

Conversely, I'm usually not a fan of John Lacey but thought he had an excellent game in Ireland vs Wales.

I think John Lacey made ZERO mistakes in reffing the Ireland Vs Wales game! I can say that with 100% certainty and with no fear of contradiction; Even having not watched the game.

 

[irishref]

Re: the Launchbury decision. I haven't seen the game but have watched brief highlights, where this incident was replayed.

I seem to recall an anecdote about an English ref - was it Spredders? - once calling 'advantage over...almost' since as soon as he called an advantage over the opposition stole possession or something.

Was the call by NO on the Launchbury slowing down ball preceded by warnings or penalties against England for the same offence? Was there a pattern already in NO's head about consistent offending whilst not actually stealing Scotland's ball?

Again all conjecture on my part since I haven't seen the game yet, but was there an element of England gaining a very clear advantage despite infringing and forcing the ref to tell them to stop?

 

[Wedgie]

My take was: Biggar takes the ball and is tackled, on hitting the ground it goes towards the Irish DBL off an Irish foot (no C & O infringement in my view) then Biggar scoops it back in while still on the ground.

I think GJ (or the AR upon viewing the replay) took the view that either Kearney was off his feet and therefore not entitled to play the ball or he used his feet to kick the ball out of Biggar's hands

 

[DocY]

Was the call by NO on the Launchbury slowing down ball preceded by warnings or penalties against England for the same offence? Was there a pattern already in NO's head about consistent offending whilst not actually stealing Scotland's ball?

Again all conjecture on my part since I haven't seen the game yet, but was there an element of England gaining a very clear advantage despite infringing and forcing the ref to tell them to stop?

There hadn’t been warnings, but England had been doing similar at nearly every breakdown. They were being shouted at to get their hands out rather than being penalised, though, when the ball came back Scotland’s way anyway.

IMO he should have clamped down on it and given a few penalties before we got to this point.

 

[Rich_NL]

I agree with Zebra.

I thought WB's decision on the collapsed maul *looked like* he'd decided on the outcome and was looking for reasons to support it. He's usually exemplary on talking through TMO decisions.

I know NO's style is to let as much go as possible, but I thought he erred on the side of generosity (for both sides) too much in this match. The Launchbury thing seemed uncharacteristically badly-managed for such a communicative ref (I'm English, by the way, and thought England deserved to lose and have no-one to blame but themselves).

I only caught segments of the IRL-WAL game, but it was thrilling stuff. Hope to catch up more tonight.

 

[winchesterref]

Independently of who won or lost , Do YOU think NO had a good game or a poor game ?
Just a thought

Scotland 100% deserved to win. England were poor for 70-75 minutes, with the 5 just after half time being their most fluid. They lacked any kind of physical presence, pace, defensive organisation, and it was superbly exploited by the Scots.

However...

I think Nigel has been selectively ignoring offences in favour of continuity for way too long, with far too much time spent on "witty banter" and not enough on applying laws consistently. Players being off their feet is a major bugbear of mine, and yesterday was no different, and I think in general his breakdown was far worse than normal. Scotland exploited this.

Obviously I can point to more Scotland infringements that weren't refereed consistently whereas England were being penalised, e.g. Mike Brown clearing beyond the ruck (a marginal call, and a really high standard to set which NO didn't match for the rest of the game), but I'm sure it goes both ways with some stuff missed the other way too.

 

[VM75]

Predictable whinging from some quarters of the England supporters
Rubbish

As for NO’s interpretation of the breakdown, it is well known how individual referees manage certain elements of the game. Townsend and Barclay in particular will have studied NO’s management of the breakdown in great detail over the past week. The England team will have done the same but obviously did not learn from their studies: D- Cheap & easy unsubstantiated speculation

If I had come on here complaining about the refereeing of last season’s Calcutta Cup match I would rightly have been laughed off the forum. irrelevant

Perhaps looking at the game from the perspective of why the opposition won rather than why your team lost might bear a more positive and beneficial outcome. Just a thought. perhaps you might try to be more 'Patronising' ?!

On the Launchbury incident.

NO's critical error was either that:
a] his preventative words to JL had succeeded in ball release, & he was now happy for play to continue , ie ..what it looked like to me.

or

b] he was actually playing advantage without verbalising or signalling the same - which would be an unusual drop of his normal clear communication standards

or

c] that despite a] & b] he considered that the interception opportunity was C&O'y caused by the slowness of the ball release. - which would require him to have factored in a memory recall of defence organisation pre & post 'the alleged slowing' - which I doubt he considered.

There would be no issue for meIF he'd indicated advantage was being played, but as he didn't then i'm bemused & unsure why he'd pluck that decision, after so long.


ps.... this doesn't excuse a bludgeoningly undynamic England performance or detract from a spirited skilfull and energetic Scottish one, but such 7point moments can IMO switch momentum & if you can't appreciate that JollyDearChap then you're beyond my help!

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

What did people think of Wayne Barnes's decision for the first try for Italy?
There was no way he was in a position to see grounding, he just guessed and was clearly wrong.
Then hung out to dry by the TMO and couldn't find anyone to card despite then giving a penalty try, another guess!

 

[crossref]

On the Launchbury incident.

NO's critical error was either that:
a] his preventative words to JL had succeeded in ball release, & he was now happy for play to continue , ie ..what it looked like to me.

or

b] he was actually playing advantage without verbalising or signalling the same - which would be an unusual drop of his normal clear communication standards

or

c] that despite a] & b] he considered that the interception opportunity was C&O'y caused by the slowness of the ball release. - which would require him to have factored in a memory recall of defence organisation pre & post 'the alleged slowing' - which I doubt he considered.

There would be no issue for meIF he'd indicated advantage was being played, but as he didn't then i'm bemused & unsure why he'd pluck that decision, after so long.


ps.... this doesn't excuse a bludgeoningly undynamic England performance or detract from a spirited skilfull and energetic Scottish one, but such 7point moments can IMO switch momentum & if you can't appreciate that JollyDearChap then you're beyond my help!

He saw it, decided it was immaterial and let it go.
then the interception and he changed his mind

it was very poor reffing. If any of us did that we'd lose credibility right away - to the extent that it would be difficult to work your way back from. Because he's the Sainted Nige, though, he gets away with stuff.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

He awarded a Pk (advantage) and then a second PK (advantage) and the maul traveled quickly toward the goal-line. Surely, he is now thinking: "If they don't score them I'm off under the posts!"

 

[Zebra1922]

I think John Lacey made ZERO mistakes in reffing the Ireland Vs Wales game! I can say that with 100% certainty and with no fear of contradiction; Even having not watched the game.

Right referee, wrong game! Well, whatever the last game I saw Mr. Lacey referee I was impressed with, and I've not been a fan of his in the past.

 

[Zebra1922]

What did people think of Wayne Barnes's decision for the first try for Italy?
There was no way he was in a position to see grounding, he just guessed and was clearly wrong.
Then hung out to dry by the TMO and couldn't find anyone to card despite then giving a penalty try, another guess!

Well, the TV replay's clearly show the initial giving of the try was an error. Made me think of one of the referee howlers from the Aussie rugby show Top 5's.

However, his logic in then going back to award a PT was pretty sound. Several penalties, the maul did look like it had been illegally collapsed even if you could not spot an number. My only downside was he did look uncertain throughout this process and not his normal decisive self.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Right referee, wrong game! Well, whatever the last game I saw Mr. Lacey referee I was impressed with, and I've not been a fan of his in the past.

I've been lukewarm on him. Sometimes he's very poor but at times very good. Makes some "odd" calls. Last few occasions I've seen him he's tended to be a positive force.

 

[L'irlandais]

John Lacey took control of the Scotland v France game, a fortnight ago.

 

[TheBFG]

Not sure if this has been discussed, but there was a mid-field offside called again OF (#12) for advancing after a kick, assume it was called in by the AR?

However, what happened to the options of scrum where it was kicked from or PK where OF was offside?

The PK was given mid-field about 5m into the Eng half and Scotland without a long range kicker opted to kick to touch, however the clearance kick was on or just inside the Eng 22m between the 5 and 15, a great attacking spot and with a solid Sco scrum and obvious choice, but it was never even discussed?