No ruck formed, so can stand anywhere

[Dan Cottrell]

Playing against a side wholike to "zig zag" play. That is they set up a four man pod to the left of the ruck, pop to it and drive, form a ruck and then pop the ball back to the previous ruck players who are now on their feet. They go left, right, left, right...and so on.

Let's say (like Saracens), the defending team tackle that pod to ground with just one player. A tackle. No one else goes in on the defence other than the tackler who is busily rolling away.

Can the rest of defenders stand anywhere they like, as long as they don't go in through the wrong side of the tackle. And when is that tackle over anyway. I assume the ball and attackers over the ball cannot stay there for ever?

 

[OB..]

No ruck, no offside line (just keep clear of the sides of the tackle zone). Players are onside unless they were offside from a previous phase of play.

The tackle is over when the ball leaves it (or a ruck forms etc).

 

[damo]

It is something you see more in sevens than in XV's. Good sevens team will not commit anyone to the breakdown so they can stand up in the faces of the attackers. I think in XV's its a dubious tactic because it allows very quick and free ball to the attackers.

The other reason it is a bit of dubious tactic is because not every referee will focus in on the fact that no ruck has formed and will only see players offside and will instinctively penalise

 

[didds]

as OB said... BUT... it potentially leaves defenders with a very broken and inconsistent defensive line and anything that subsequently does create an offside line also maybe leaves these players out of the game.


which is why savvy sides treat non rucks as rucks for offside line purposes so as to best defend subsequent plays albeit sacrificing possession and (some)pressure.


didds

 

[jdeagro]

This sounds like something I've been wondering about on and off. So if a tackle occurs, and the defending team doesn't commit anyone to form a ruck, therefor no ruck is formed, then no offsides line exists for that defending team as well (even if the attacking team commits players over where the tackle occurred)? (I'm wondering in both the cases that the defending tackler player rolled away after making the tackle, and also getting caught and not being able to roll away.)

 

[FlipFlop]

Yup - if no one from the otherside commit, then just a tackle, and no offside lines. But can be a difficult sell....

Had one game where 1 side (call them red) used it brilliantly - break away, tackled. Defence (blue) didn't commit, so blue flyhalf stood next to red fly half. Red scrum hall passed the ball to his fly half, it was intercept, and length of field sprint to score. Red players and coach were furious at the "blatant offside" I had missed. Even after the game, and an explanation, and the video showing it, they refused to accept it.

 

[menace]

I'm not disputing any of what's said prior but what is 15.6 (tackle) to mean???

[LAWS]
(g) Any player who first gains possession of the ball at the tackle or near to it may be tackled by an opposition player providing that player does so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to that player’s goal line.
Sanction: Penalty kick
[/LAWS]

Does the bit I've bolded relate to the opposition player?

The IRB video they show actually looks like a ruck had formed...rather than just a tackle...at the new tackler was never onside

 

[Dixie]

Does the bit I've bolded relate to the opposition player?

That's my reading of it.

 

[menace]

So isn't that effectively suggesting some sort of "offside" at the tackle?

I read davet's other post about this on the other thread...and it made sense to me (ie pillar and post not behind ball and tackling near the original tackle zone..ie not thru the gate)... So isn't that more or less an 'offside' (and i use that term loosely) at/NEAR the tackle??

There ae no offside lines at the tackle.

Any player can stand or move almost anywhere. I say almost, because if the want to play the ball, or tackle the player who plays the ball then they must come through the gate, 15.6.d & g

So whilst at a ruck the pillars in front of the back foot and stood to the side are offside, at a tacke they are not. BUT - they cannot immediately tackle the opposition player who first plays the ball unless they come through the gate to do so.

I say "...not immediately" because that player who first plays the ball must move away from the tackle zone as soon as possible, once he has done so then the Pillars are not acting "at or near" the tackle, and they may then tackle the opposition player.

 

[Davet]

It may be a sort of offside, in the sense that their position in realtion to other players, and their actions determines the offence -

But unlike offside at a ruck - at a tackle the players don't have to get behind a line - and if the opposition move wide then there is no concept of loitering.

All in all I think it best to regard the tackle as not having offside lines, but having a gate for action in its vicinity - to my mind that keeps it simpler, and reflects law better.

 

[menace]

Davet...understood and agree. Thank you.

 

[Rassie]

This sounds like something I've been wondering about on and off. So if a tackle occurs, and the defending team doesn't commit anyone to form a ruck, therefor no ruck is formed, then no offsides line exists for that defending team as well (even if the attacking team commits players over where the tackle occurred)? (I'm wondering in both the cases that the defending tackler player rolled away after making the tackle, and also getting caught and not being able to roll away.)

Nice way for the defense to lure a attacking team in and to use the blitz to smash the next receiver and to try and win a turn over.

 

[ChrisR]

Not too hard to grasp the purpose of 15.6(g). It protects the "retriever" from defending fringe players so that the ball can be put back in play anticipating that he will pass the ball.

What if he runs with it? When does his protection end? I think it would end as soon as he steps past the perimeter of the gate.

 

[Rassie]

In 2003 the Crusaders played the unbeatable Brumbies who were renowned for their multiple-phase play. The Crusaders did not contest at the tackle so that no ruck could form. That way their backs could be closer to the Brumbies backline and stop them from getting momentum. It worked and the Crusaders won

 

[RugbyFish]

The tackle is over when the ball leaves it (or a ruck forms etc).

How do you define when the ball leaves the tackle zone? I had this situation in a sevens match the other day:

#2 red is tackled and places the ball. Tackler moves away and #3 red enters tackle zone from behind and stands over #2 red to protect the ball. #2 red doesn't role away but I don't penalize it because it seems immaterial. No ruck forms. As #2 red placed the ball deep, it's not between #3 red's feet. After about 3 seconds, #4 blue decides to run around the red players to pick up the ball, clearly thinking "ball is out". Red players complain and I feel uncomfortable but let play continue because I would have done exactly that if a ruck had formed and the ball had come out.

Should I have penalized #4 blue?
Assuming the tackled player had roled away - does the "tackle" end immediately?

 

[Taff]

It may be a sort of offside, in the sense that their position in realtion to other players, and their actions determines the offence .... All in all I think it best to regard the tackle as not having offside lines, but having a gate for action in its vicinity - to my mind that keeps it simpler, and reflects law better.

At the start I imagined offside lines at a tackle, but as Davet says they're not really offside lines. Don't forget the definition of an offside line ie

Offside line: An imaginary line across the ground, from one touchline to the other, parallel to the goal-lines; the position of this line varies according to the Law.

How do you define when the ball leaves the tackle zone?

I was told if it was with 1m of the tackler, it was still in the tackle zone. It makes sense.

 

[RugbyFish]

I was told if it was with 1m of the tackler, it was still in the tackle zone. It makes sense.

Since you say of the "tackler" - does that mean the opposing team can run around the tackle and go for the ball from any direction once the tackler has roled away?

 

[OB..]

#2 red is tackled and places the ball. Tackler moves away and #3 red enters tackle zone from behind and stands over #2 red to protect the ball. #2 red doesn't role away but I don't penalize it because it seems immaterial.

Tell him to roll away. Merely by being there he may be dissuading opponents from trying to get to the ball, and was his presence making #3's action more effective? Moreover you don't want him to get into bad habits.

No ruck forms. As #2 red placed the ball deep, it's not between #3 red's feet. After about 3 seconds, #4 blue decides to run around the red players to pick up the ball, clearly thinking "ball is out". Red players complain and I feel uncomfortable but let play continue because I would have done exactly that if a ruck had formed and the ball had come out.

If an opponent had bound on to Red #3, would that have formed a ruck? If not, the ball was "out" (and #3 was obstructing). Why not say so?

 

[Taff]

.... I was told if it was with 1m of the tackler, it was still in the tackle zone. It makes sense.

Since you say of the "tackler" - does that mean the opposing team can run around the tackle and go for the ball from any direction once the tackler has roled away?

Sorry, I was rushing and meant tackled player not the tackler. If the ball carrier places the ball back under 1m players have to come in through the gate. If he was to roll the ball say 1.5m then it's out of the tackle zone so the opposing team can run around the tackle and go for the ball from any direction. That's what I was told.

 

[Ian_Cook]

It is something you see more in sevens than in XV's. Good sevens team will not commit anyone to the breakdown so they can stand up in the faces of the attackers. I think in XV's its a dubious tactic because it allows very quick and free ball to the attackers.

The other reason it is a bit of dubious tactic is because not every referee will focus in on the fact that no ruck has formed and will only see players offside and will instinctively penalise

Another thing that can and does happen is this

► a tackle takes place. No ruck as mentioned.
► opposition are ahead of the tackle, well up in the faces of the attack.
► a defender arrives and sees an opportunity to walk into the tackle and pick up the ball just as the ball is cleared, or is met by an opponent and prevented from picking up the ball.l
► when he walked in and went for the ball, a ruck was formed. All those defenders are now offside.

At what point are those offside players put onside? Logically, I think they remain offside until they reach some point along what was their ruck offside line when the ruck still existed, so they cannot take part in the game until they reach that point. However, Law 16 doesn't actually say. It says nothing about how offside players can be put onside.

NOTE: Law 11 doesn't apply because they were not offside in general play, and in any case, it surely cannot be used here because the act of the SH passing the ball would have put them onside - Law 11.3(b)