no signal from referee

[Paule23]

Refereed my first game under this new law today, and what a bloody stupid rule it is. Scrums were generally more of a mess as they are generally not fully square and stable before the put in, yes you can penalise the SH for putting in early, but I found it more difficult to manage the scrums and talk to them to get them square and stable as I've already moved away to allows the SH to feed when they want.

I'm not sure what problem this change is trying to cure, maybe just to speed everything up, but for me it didn't work very well. Maybe it'll just take some getting used to.

 

[Nigib]

Refereed my first game under this new law today, and what a bloody stupid rule it is. Scrums were generally more of a mess as they are generally not fully square and stable before the put in, yes you can penalise the SH for putting in early, but I found it more difficult to manage the scrums and talk to them to get them square and stable as I've already moved away to allows the SH to feed when they want.

I'm not sure what problem this change is trying to cure, maybe just to speed everything up, but for me it didn't work very well. Maybe it'll just take some getting used to.

Agree completely on having less control. I reffed several training games yesterday. I stayed in close until I was happy with stability, then backed away. Opposite the put-in was easier as I'd expected - maybe that's a solution, but I usually go touchline side of the scrum so I can see across the pitch. SH's were still looking to me for a nod, but I'm sure they'll uncondition themselves soon enough.

 

[didds]

Agree completely on having less control.

so what is the difference between "now" and before the "ref gives the nod" previous law was introduced?

didds

 

[Ian_Cook]

I'm not a fan of the "no signal" clause. I'm not sure what it accomplishes. In fact I think it may skew the scrum towards the team putting the ball in even more.

Good. And so it should. Remember, they are more often than not, putting the ball in because the opponent's infringed.

Referees telling the SH to put the ball in should never have been introduced in the first place. It has led to the side throwing in (that is the non-infringing side) being disadvantaged at the scrum put in.

Teams quickly worked out that if they were not throwing the ball in, but knew when it was going to be fed, then with an 8-7 pushing advantage in the scrum, they would be able to time their shove to make it very hard for the opposing hooker to hook the ball. End result was the ludicrous situation we see frequently where the ball is in the tunnel, and neither scrum is strong enough to push the other off the ball, and neither hooker is willing to risk hooking.

It got better when "Yes 9" was dropped and became a tap or a hand signal, and thankfully, WR have finally realised their mistake, and have removed this ill-advised procedure from the game altogether

However, its a pity they have only done half a job in returning the scrum to what it is supposed to be... a HOOKING contest. Only once the ball is hooked should it become a pushing contest. IMO, what they should have done here is make the scrum half throw the ball down the middle but make it compulsory for BOTH hookers to strike for the ball, and no pushing until that happened.

 

[Nigib]

so what is the difference between "now" and before the "ref gives the nod" previous law was introduced?

didds

Previously, the SH had to wait for a tap if on same side, or a clear signal if on the other - this gave me the flexibility to let the scrum settle before moving to the next phase, regardless of how close I was to the scrum itself. I feel it was safer than the new approach, as my focus was on the scrum, then the SH - now I have to be aware of both. Not having this clear step I can see the potential for arbitrary calls on the SH delaying or early engage. I'll reserve full judgement until after I've done a few games.

 

[OB..]

Referees telling the SH to put the ball

In theory, they simply told the scrum half when the scrum was properly set. Then the scrumhalf could decide his own timing (within reason). Unfortunately it rarely worked that way.

 

[Phil E]

My first game the scrums were a bit "mobile" and I struggled slightly as described by others above.

Second and third games, no issues. Pinged the scrums if the moved past the mark. Reset them if they weren't stable, with the threat that we would continue resetting ad-infinitum until they were stable.
Also briefed the SH to hold the ball at his chest until it was stable, then when it was stable to move the ball to his knees and straight in (i.e. don't hold it at your knees). 90% of the time it goes straight in without any delay.

"SH, you get it in as soon as its stable, if its not stable I will deal with that."

 

[ChrisR]

^^^^^ Yes.

But tthree questions:

Did you stand at the tunnel or let him?

Did he feed it at 'set' and, if he did, was that OK with you?

Was there any discussion/disagreement on what was 'stable'?

 

[SimonSmith]

Signalling the scrum half came in when?

It's not like we're going back to a practice from decades ago. This should be recent history and recent memory, and not too tricky.

I did my first competitive match yesterday, and had nary a problem. Told the scrum halves that if I had a problem with the scrum, I'd tell them. Absent that, it's between them and the hooker.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Signalling the scrum half came in when?

It's not like we're going back to a practice from decades ago. This should be recent history and recent memory, and not too tricky.

Trialled in 2013, then came into Law in 2014 when CTPE was replaced by CBS.

I did my first competitive match yesterday, and had nary a problem. Told the scrum halves that if I had a problem with the scrum, I'd tell them. Absent that, it's between them and the hooker.

Agree. These guys train (or should train) at this to get their timing right.

Also briefed the SH to hold the ball at his chest until it was stable, then when it was stable to move the ball to his knees and straight in (i.e. don't hold it at your knees).

"SH, you get it in as soon as its stable, if its not stable I will deal with that."

Bloody excellent. That is good advice to any referee.

 

[didds]

Previously, the SH had to wait for a tap if on same side, or a clear signal if on the other - this gave me the flexibility to let the scrum settle before moving to the next phase, regardless of how close I was to the scrum itself. I feel it was safer than the new approach, as my focus was on the scrum, then the SH - now I have to be aware of both. Not having this clear step I can see the potential for arbitrary calls on the SH delaying or early engage. I'll reserve full judgement until after I've done a few games.

You misunderstood me Nige. Before the ref did the tap on the side/nod/verbal "now 9" or whatever none of that happened at all. It wsn;t that long ago!

Which sounds remarkably like what we have now. so why is it now a problem but before wasn't?

didds

 

[Nigib]

You misunderstood me Nige. Before the ref did the tap on the side/nod/verbal "now 9" or whatever none of that happened at all. It wsn;t that long ago!

Which sounds remarkably like what we have now. so why is it now a problem but before wasn't?

didds

You're right Didds, I was just going back one set of orders from on high. Perhaps I've just got used to the control as a safety assurance thing - no doubt I'll loosen the reins soon

 

[Phil E]

^^^^^ Yes.

But tthree questions:

Did you stand at the tunnel or let him? I Let him

Did he feed it at 'set' and, if he did, was that OK with you? No, after Set not "on" it.

Was there any discussion/disagreement on what was 'stable'? No

msfmsf

 

[crossref]

we had our society briefings yesterday -- the question of when you should/shouldn't stand in the tunnel didn't really come up, but the general thrust from the presenter was
- some part of the responsibility for ensuring that the scrum is stable before the put in has passed from the ref to the 9
- so add a sentence to the PMB to make that clear -- eg : you need to make sure ensure it's stable before the ball comes in. If it's not stable I'll have to deal with it, and it would be a shame to be FKing you on your own throw in

no doubt other people were there, so correct me if that's not a fair summary.