No8 Pickup with uncontested scrum

[Joe@trfc]

Just wanted to check I was right

If the match has to go to uncontested scrums, only the acting scrum half can pick the ball up

I had some complaints when I disallowed a No8 pickup and gave a FK

 

[ddjamo]

you got that one wrong joe...unless it's a local variation there's nothing in law that says the 8 man cannot pick up at the base off a non contested scrum.

 

[TheBFG]

"urban myth" "Urban Myth" warning!

as DDJ says there's nothing wrong with this. this is of course providing it's not age grade rugby and the sides are 7v7 in the scrum :wink:

 

[crossref]

I think what BFG says is the source of the confusion

- if the scrum is 7 v 7 in age group rugby (whether contested or not) then as there is a no wheeling allowed, and absent a wheel no hindmost man, then no one can pick up. This is the case whether contested or not.

(The confusion comes because uncontested and 7v7 often happen at the same time, but not necessarily so)

 

[talbazar]

I think what BFG says is the source of the confusion

- if the scrum is 7 v 7 in age group rugby (whether contested or not) then as there is a no wheeling allowed, and absent a wheel no hindmost man, then no one can pick up. This is the case whether contested or not.

(The confusion comes because uncontested and 7v7 often happen at the same time, but not necessarily so)

Why would only No8 could pick up the ball?

Scenario:
Ball fed by scrumhalf, hooked by hooker and sent back sideways so it comes out in No6 feet.
Why couldn't No6 unbind from the scrum, pick the ball and go?

Did I miss something?

Cheers,
Pierre.

 

[crossref]

Why would only No8 could pick up the ball?

Scenario:
Ball fed by scrumhalf, hooked by hooker and sent back sideways so it comes out in No6 feet.
Why couldn't No6 unbind from the scrum, pick the ball and go?

Did I miss something?

Cheers,
Pierre.

Only the hindmost man can pick up
in my opinion if there is no #8 and the scrum is straight then there is no hindmost man.
unless there is a wheel, when one of the flankers would be it (not the #6)
but at U19 and younger wheeling isn't allowed, so that can't happen
so when there is 7 v 7 at U19 and below, no pick ups

opinions may differ.

 

[Davet]

#6 IS a flanker, as is #7.

If the scrum wheels one of them can become hindmost.

At U19 wheeling may not be deliberate, but it may get to 45 degrees, legally. (ie not deliberately).

Regardless, at an uncontested scrum here is nothing to stop the hindmost player unbinding and picking up the ball. This is perfectly legal.

 

[crossref]

#6 IS a flanker, as is #7.
.

oops of course he is ! (what was I thinking)

If the scrum wheels one of them can become hindmost.

At U19 wheeling may not be deliberate, but it may get to 45 degrees, legally. (ie not deliberately).

Regardless, at an uncontested scrum here is nothing to stop the hindmost player unbinding and picking up the ball. This is perfectly legal.

yeah, and if the scrum just happens to wheel accidentally and a flanker picks it up, I'd be willing to bet you £100 to a penny that the scrum wheeled clockwise so that the lucky flanker just happened to be the one on the opposite side to the defending scrum half :wink:


Basically I think that if you tell an attacking team that if the scrum just happens to wheel accidentally.... then they can pick up, well then you are simply inviting them to wheel it deliberately.

 

[Davet]

fair point, but if they do then you ping 'em.

Or are you suggesting that any wheel is to be treated as deliberate?

Which side do you ping? No turnover at U19 so presumably it would be the putting side every time, sort of rule of thumb. So personally as the non-putting in side I'd try and wheel it and con a ping.

And if its not rule of thumb guesswork, then you must be able to see where the deliberate wheel came from; which brings us back to the top of this post...

 

[Dickie E]

Why would only No8 could pick up the ball?

Scenario:
Ball fed by scrumhalf, hooked by hooker and sent back sideways so it comes out in No6 feet.
Why couldn't No6 unbind from the scrum, pick the ball and go?

Did I miss something?

Cheers,
Pierre.

Law 20.10 for your referecne:

(c) Hindmost player unbinds. The hindmost player in a scrum is the player whose feet are nearest the team’s own goal line. If the hindmost player unbinds from the scrum with the ball at that player’s feet and picks up the ball, the scrum ends.

 

[PaulDG]

Basically I think that if you tell an attacking team that if the scrum just happens to wheel accidentally.... then they can pick up, well then you are simply inviting them to wheel it deliberately.

Sorry, how the heck does an Uncontested Scrum wheel at all?

 

[crossref]

Sorry, how the heck does an Uncontested Scrum wheel at all?

the thread had moved on - I was discussing scrums made up of 7 v 7 at U19 both contested and uncontested.

at u19 the formation of 7 v 7 must omit a #8
and no scrum may be deliberately wheeled, contested or uncontested.

 

[crossref]

fair point, but if they do then you ping 'em.

Or are you suggesting that any wheel is to be treated as deliberate?

Which side do you ping? No turnover at U19 so presumably it would be the putting side every time, sort of rule of thumb. So personally as the non-putting in side I'd try and wheel it and con a ping.

And if its not rule of thumb guesswork, then you must be able to see where the deliberate wheel came from; which brings us back to the top of this post...

if it's 7 v 7 (at age group level) I pause time momentarily and tell them

- balanced scrum at this age group, lads, there's only seven of them, so one of you has to drop out of the scrum, and get 5m back
- pause for this to happen
- right both teams, there's no number eight, OK, you have to form up with second row and flankers
- and no number eight means no no hindmost man, no pick ups. got it?

I've never yet had a team wanting a flanker to be allowed to pick up
I DO have teams wanting to form up with a #8 so as to do a pick up, but unfortunately that's not allowed in the laws.

If we drop to 6 v 6 then a #8 appears again, and pick ups are back on again (never happened to me)


I don't really see deliberate wheels at age group level, and have only pinged for it once or twice, after proper warnings. even then I dont think they were wheeling so much as failing to be in control generally. Simialr to teams who can't stop themseleves from pushing more than 1.5m.

 

[Davet]

and no number eight means no no hindmost man, no pick ups. got it?

That's the bit I'm querying. It is perfectly possible for a scrum to wheel 40 degrees and put a flanker as hindmost. If he picked up, on on what grounds would you say that he was not acting legally? - Provided the scrum was not deliberately wheeled; in which case that's the offence, not his pick up.

 

[crossref]

That's the bit I'm querying. It is perfectly possible for a scrum to wheel 40 degrees and put a flanker as hindmost. If he picked up, on on what grounds would you say that he was not acting legally? - Provided the scrum was not deliberately wheeled; in which case that's the offence, not his pick up.

The offence would be a deliberate wheel, of course.

But I'm managing it, so it doesn't happen.

The alternative is, say red have a 5m attacking scrum and you say to them
- lads if the scrum remains straight no one can pick up
- and you can't wheel it deliberately
- but if it just happens to accidentally wheel, then you can pick up...

Then you know exactly what's going to happen...

 

[Davet]

Only if your daft enough to say the last line.

And as I said before, if the do wheel it deliberately then you ping it.

But what you are doing is inventing Law. That's not the same as "managing it".

 

[FlipFlop]

Or flanker binds to the shorts of the second row (but still on the outside), rather than the shoulders, making himself the rear-most players, and still legally bound as well. Nothing says they have to be shoulder to prop. And at that age, the flankers generally aren’t really helping with the scrum.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Or flanker binds to the shorts of the second row (but still on the outside), rather than the shoulders, making himself the rear-most players, and still legally bound as well. Nothing says they have to be shoulder to prop. And at that age, the flankers generally aren’t really helping with the scrum.

I understood at U19 scrums had to be 3-4-1 and symmetrical.

[LAWS]LAW 20: SCRUM

20.1 (f)
In an 8 person scrum the formation must be 3-4-1, with the single player (normally the Number 8) shoving on the 2 locks. The locks must pack with their heads on either side of the hooker.
Exception: A team must have fewer than eight players in its scrum when the team cannot field eight suitably trained players in its scrum due to either the team not fielding a complete team, or a forward player being sent off or temporarily suspended for foul play, or a forward player leaving the field because of injury.
Even allowing for this exception, each team must always have at least five players in a scrum.
If a team is incomplete and it cannot field eight suitably trained players in its scrum, the scrum formation must be as follows:
If a team is without one forward player, then both teams must use a 3-4 formation (i.e. no No.8).
If a team is without two forward players, then both teams must use a 3-2-1 formation (i.e. no flankers).
If a team is without three forward players, then both teams must use a 3-2 formation (i.e. only front rows and locks).
When a normal scrum takes place, the players in the three front row positions and the two lock positions must have been suitably trained for these positions.
If a team cannot field such suitably trained players because:
either they are not available, or
a player in one of those five positions is injured or
has been sent off for Foul Play and no suitably trained replacement is available, then the referee must order uncontested scrums.
In an uncontested scrum, the teams do not compete for the ball. The team putting in the ball must win it. Neither team is allowed to push the other team away from the mark.[/LAWS]

 

[Davet]

U19 scrums when one forward is missing must be 3 4 0. Each side must play 3 4 0

But s that what you mean by "symmetrical"?

Or are you saying that one of the flankers cannot bind on a lock further down his body than the other flanker binds on his lock?

If he does so bind then I can see him being the hindmost player. especially if the scrum twists just a little, which they ofte do without a deliberate wheel.

I do not see the word symmetrical appearing in Law.

I am now even more convinced that Crossref's approach - whilst done for the best of reasons - is not in accordance with Law. There are, I now think, two perfectly legal ways for here to be a hindmost player in a U19 scrum which is lacking #8s

Do good intentions on the part of the ref allow him to create Law? Even if this avoids difficulties that may otherwise arise?

If so, where do we draw the line?

What do we tell the coach who has had his side work on a legal tactic to be used in given conditions, but which the ref imposes a personal ban upon?

If such a scrum starts to wheel should we simply assume a deliberate wheel and ping it before the pick up happens?

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

8 person scrum the formation must be 3-4-1, with the single player (normally the Number 8) shoving on the 2 locks. Is by definition symetrical so yes I am saying that neither flanker can bind on the locks arse as that becomes 3-3-2 or 3-2-3. Similarly if the flankers are ok the 8 cannot bind at the so called channel 1 between flanker and lock.

All above assumes an 8 man scrum.

If 7 man then 3-4-0 still implies binding by flankers on props arse to me.