Off Feet at breakdown

[evilad]

I know this seems to have been discussed to death, but I'm wondering what others opinions are, and how do you manage it? During my pre match brief I remind players that they need to stay on their feet at the breakdown and I also tell them what MY opinion of that is. i.e not being in an inverted V position with elbows/forearms on ground/tackled player, not having knees on ground or laying down.

My problem is that I constantly seem to be blowing up for not staying on feet. Am I being over zealous in my management of this area? I have seen how other refs in my society deal with this and it seems as though I am in the minority, I am due to be assesed again next week, and I dont want it to be an issue.

 

[big fish]

in my opinion, if they are not taking all their weight through their feet then they are off their feet

 

[Rob M W]

Are they having a material effect on the game?

 

[andyscott]

If they are killing the contest, and don't listen to you, ping em, and ping em hard in the 1st quarter of the game, set your standard. Then esculate from there.

 

[Davet]

At the level you are working t players are often unable to keep their feet. If they prevent a contest for the ball then ping it, if they don't then don't. If there are more than 3 players off their feet at a breakdown and the ball is not immediately available consider blowing up for a scrum as ball unplayable - don't let them scrabble around.

 

[lawsons]

at level 14, you would probably be able to blow up for an offence at every ruck if you wanted to, so materiality is key. I would look at where they are off their feet. Are they off their feet over the ball - preventing access, to the side, not really affecting play, driving past the ball then falling over, but have made the ball available. The other thing to look at is whether in your opinion they made any effort to stay on their feet. If they were going down no matter what happened, then you should ping to make them think next time. 'arrive up' is what Wayne Barnes calls as the tackle develops and players arrive. I tend to use ' stay on your feet'. Which ever suits you.

 

[PaulDG]

at level 14, you would probably be able to blow up for an offence at every ruck if you wanted to, so materiality is key.

This is an area where some of our more elevated brethren could do with a refresher.

I don't know about you, but I've sat through loads of society presentations on materiality and have been told not to apply it at lower levels as "the players don't understand it and you need to blow up quickly to keep the game tidy".

Well, in my experience, materiality is essential at the lower levels - perhaps more than at higher levels.

Players offend all the time, generally because of poor skills and because they are still employing the bad old habits they got into 20 years ago.

If you penalise them all the time, there's no "game" - just a succession of penalties.

If you apply more serious sanctions for repeated offences, you'll be on your own in the middle of the pitch by the end of the first half.

In many ways, these low level games are the hardest ones of all to referee - higher level games are so much tidier.

(Of course higher level games come with other issues - faster pace and a lot more pressure from spectators and coaches.)

 

[Simon Thomas]

while a L14 and up to 11 ish, it is vital as my esteemed colleagues suggest, to only blow for offences that have material effect. Think "Is there a contest for the ball at tackle / ruck and did player off his feet influence the result / have an impact ?" - rest of time don't blow but warn you saw it.

Also work very hard in first 15/20 minutes to establish a standard and use lots of preventative calls aimed at specific players - "#4 blue stay on your feet". Thus when you blow, "#4 going to ground to kill the ball in a ruck", you have pre-identififed him and can say "listen to me fellas please and take action".

 

[PaulDG]

"#4 blue stay on your feet".

Assuming, of course, that blue actually has a number on his back...

(And that it's a different number to the innocent player standing next to him..)

(Oh and that blue 4 actually knows his shirt has the number "4" on the back - though that's less important as at least you know.)

 

[Dixie]

First thing is that these guys are no mugs. Knackered yes - but very wily and perfectly capable of acting so that their knackered status doesn't give their oppo too much advantage. This is the game they are playing, and only you as the ref can stop them (the oppo is also old enough to remember how to use a boot to free up a ball, so you need to get a firm grip before they try that time-honoured tactic).

I think I'd change you pre-match explanation a bit. "Guys, I know it can be hard to stay on your feet with all that pushing and shoving going on. But you should know that if you get in the way of the ball having fallen over, I'm going to penalise you for preventing a contest unless I see very vigorous and pretty effective effort to get out of the way".

Then stick to your guns with escalation through Ask Tell Penalise. The Ask phase has already occurred; the Tell will be: Blue 3 - MOVE! The PK will follow as surely as night follows day. Then all you have to think about is the speed with which you move to a formal chat with the skipper, followed by cards for repeated team offending. You won't be popular - but you might get the best game of rugby out of these guys for many a long year!

 

[ex-lucy]

Am I being over zealous in my management of this area? I have seen how other refs in my society deal with this and it seems as though I am in the minority.

how do the otehr refs deal with it then?

 

[lawsons]

To be honest, I would cut that bit out of your pre match chat. The more you say, the bigger the hole you dig yourself sometimes. I merely go through front row sequence, tell them I mark defensive line at the line out and all communication through the skipper. At the toss I re-inforce that by wishing them a good game and to work with me not against me.

First ruck you have loud call of 'stay on your feet' or whatever and set your standard out. So long as you are consistent, you won't have a problem.

If anyone asks a question to me in the prematch talk - invariably it's when is it out or when is it hands on - I quote the law back to them or keep it as simple as possible. The more detail you go into, the more likely you'll hear it quoted back to you mid game ! "But you said..."

 

[OB..]

At low levels it may not be necessary to ping a player who has gone off his feet, but it is certainly a good idea to let him know you saw it.

 

[evilad]

Other refs ive seen tend to let it happen and nor penalise it. Maybe i just see it as a good place for a turnover. I have also been told i can be very harsh on scrum halves putting the ball in straight at scrum time. Dont dispute that one as a hooker. get it in straight its still a place to contest for possesion.

 

[phillo]

I had a ruck form today, red 4 is only player on ground on knees, elbows, head on ground, ball under stomach, oppo players had no chance of competing for ball if they wanted to. I shout "roll away red 4" x 2 (he might not have heard the first one :wink: ) and then ping "penalty, not rolling away red 4". Red coach went crazy! Was I right?

This same coach had told me prior to the game that it was ok for players to step over their tackled player and put their hands on the ground (effectively bridging). I pointed out that if any of their body weight was supported by their hands they were "off feet". He disagreed. Long afternoon.

 

[OB..]

I had a ruck form today, red 4 is only player on ground on knees, elbows, head on ground, ball under stomach, oppo players had no chance of competing for ball if they wanted to. I shout "roll away red 4" x 2 (he might not have heard the first one :wink: ) and then ping "penalty, not rolling away red 4". Red coach went crazy! Was I right?

Yes.

Classic squeezeball. Illegal unless the ball is immediately made available.

This same coach had told me prior to the game that it was ok for players to step over their tackled player and put their hands on the ground (effectively bridging). I pointed out that if any of their body weight was supported by their hands they were "off feet". He disagreed. Long afternoon.

He told you? Not asked you? Warning bells ringing loud and clear.

 

[Davet]

AS OB didn't say - coach tells you what the Law is - tell him right back, polite but firm, but take no telling from the coach.

I assume that's why it was a long afternoon - luckily it would be longer for him, he hasn't got the whistle.