Offences at the Tackle

[Chunky Charvis]

If you had to list the offences you see at the tackle, what would they be?
Under the following headings:

By the Tackler

By the Tackle Assist

By the Ball Carrier

By Other Players

 

[didds]

By the Tackle Assist
not letting the player up

 

[Taff]

OK, I'll have a stab at it.

By the Tackler

• Not releasing the ball carrier and the ball
• Not getting up or rolling away
• If the ruck has already formed playing the ball from any direction

By the Tackle Assist

• Not coming in through the "gate"
• Not staying on his feet

By the Ball Carrier

• Not releasing the ball

By Other Players

• Not coming in through the "gate"
• Not staying on his feet

 

[Dixie]

If you had to list the offences you see at the tackle, what would they be?

By the Tackler Dangerous tackle; failing to release; lying on top; lying on the wrong side; playing the ball on the ground; obstructing the arriving oppo players

By the Tackle Assist Failure to release; playing the ball from the wrong side; obstructing the arriving oppo players; shoulders below hips; bridging; sealing

By the Ball Carrier Illegal hand-off/fend; holding on; failure to roll away; taking a second bite at the ball once it's been placed; "double movement" in an effort to score (sorry about that!); wriggling to get between the ball and the oppo; adopting squeezeball position when it becomes clear support is slow;

By Other Players shoulders below hips; illegal clear-out; going to ground; side entry; saddle roll;

 

[OB..]

I'm not quite clear what you are after. Doesn't Law 15 contain all the answers?

Or are you asking which are the most common offences?

 

[Chunky Charvis]

I'm not quite clear what you are after. Doesn't Law 15 contain all the answers?

Or are you asking which are the most common offences?

Yes I was after which offences people thought were most common. I personally felt tackler not rolling away would be the most common problem, but a lot of those who I have asked have also said that the tackler not releasing is a more common occurrence for them. But overall, I reckon it's the tackler who causes most of the problems that we have to intervene in at the tackle

 

[OB..]

Here is a summary from the stats I collected in 102 matches.

301 holding
298 hands
255 offside ruck
197 diving over
188 not rolling away
138 side entry
18 foot on player

"holding" is by the tackled player.
"not rolling away" is by the tackler.

 

[Dickie E]

Here is a summary from the stats I collected in 102 matches.

301 holding
298 hands
255 offside ruck
197 diving over
188 not rolling away
138 side entry
18 foot on player

"holding" is by the tackled player.
"not rolling away" is by the tackler.

Significantly more "hands in the ruck" than "tackler not releasing". I am surprised

 

[Womble]

Here is a summary from the stats I collected in 102 matches.

301 holding
298 hands
255 offside ruck
197 diving over
188 not rolling away
138 side entry
18 foot on player

"holding" is by the tackled player.
"not rolling away" is by the tackler.

It would appear that second and third offences are being pinged at your level OB from those stats!

 

[Pinky]

It would appear that second and third offences are being pinged at your level OB from those stats!

Womble, that assumes there was in fact a first and mayby second offence, although I was a bit surprised that tackled holding on was the most frequent and nearly twice tackler not releasing/rolling away.

 

[OB..]

It would appear that second and third offences are being pinged at your level OB from those stats!

Inexperienced referees do indeed often miss the first offence, but why do you assume some of those offences are prima facie not the first offence?

 

[Womble]

I have not assumed anything OB, the stats speak for themselves, Many years experience tells me that to have holding on pinged allmost twice as much as tackler not moving your referees are not clearing the tackler quick enough so that the ball can be placed or passed by the ball carrier. Also when I have the honor of refereeing propper rugby ( lvl8 and below)the hardest bit of management is to move the tackler followed by "why sir?"

 

[Chunky Charvis]

Here is a summary from the stats I collected in 102 matches.

301 holding
298 hands
255 offside ruck
197 diving over
188 not rolling away
138 side entry
18 foot on player

"holding" is by the tackled player.
"not rolling away" is by the tackler.

Great stats OB, many thanks. Very interesting, I would have assumed far more tackler not rolling away penalties. And I am surprised that holding on is the highest! Food for thought. At what levels were these games overall?

 

[Dixie]

Also when I have the honor of refereeing propper rugby ( lvl8 and below)the hardest bit of management is to move the tackler followed by "why sir?"

Is that because you are allowing the tackled player to stay where his is and form a block against the defence heeling the ball back? If you allow him to stay, how can you insist on the tackler getting out of there? As long as the tackler releases the ball carrier to allow him to exercise his options, why ping him for not moving, while allowing the tackled player to curl up?

 

[Davet]

Dixie - possible, but I feel you are casting out a big smelly bait here.

As a general rule - and thus evident in stats - I would expect that the tackler not rolling away would be the first offence in many more cases than is the tackled player failing to release the ball - and to see stats this way round does suggest that the refs are pinging 2nd offence.

But OB has observed them in reality, rather than filtered by stats - and while I note he asked the question, why is this assumption made, I also note he did not say it was innaccurate; perhaps he would care to comment further...?

 

[Dixie]

As a general rule - and thus evident in stats - I would expect that the tackler not rolling away would be the first offence in many more cases than is the tackled player failing to release the ball - and to see stats this way round does suggest that the refs are pinging 2nd offence.

But there are offences and offences. Tackle made; immediate release of tackled player, immediate push of the ball back, with hand on top - i.e. placement. So far, so commonplace (let's leave aside the question of legality). Immediately, defensive 7 gets hands on, at which point tackled player either pulls it in under his armpit or increases downward pressure. Now, would it really be appropriate, with both tackler and tackled player lying where they fell, to ping the tackler for not rollign away? He's had (and is having) absolutely zero impact on what's transpired since the tackle.

 

[Davet]

Yes - clearly there areany cases where pinging the tackler for holding on is the correct decision - no-one is suggesting it never happens. just that in the experience of many of us it is not as common as the tackler staying all over the ball until the muck has formed and then wriggling futiley to show he is trapped in and hoping the ref will ping the tackled player.

If the ref arrives a little late on the scene all he sees is the trapped player and the tackled player hanging onto the ball.... job done by tackler, another tick in the stats box for not releasing, and another gentle conversation with your assessor about getting to the breakdown in time to see what is really going on....

 

[SimonSmith]

At the lower levels, what I see a lot is a runner get isolated, usually because the forwards are either not amrt enough to read the play, or are old and unfit.

Runs into two tacklers, and is isolated... there's the holding on penalty.

 

[OB..]

Those stats were from a quick and dirty ad hoc program and cover data back to 2007. Since knowing your data is important, I'll look into it in more detail. Eventually.

 

[Davet]

Maybe just let us know what your own instinct is havinh watched the games - is it pinging 2nd offence at times or is it an accuraet stat for first up offences?