[Law] Offside or no offside - Ospreys v SF

[Phil E]

Having followed this thread on and off, and with Ian's detailed analysis I am happy that the team got it right on the day and the try was good.

In reality though if this happens tomorrow I am in all likelihood going to call offside under 10m and not retreating becasue I wont have the time or the assistance to determine otherwise. I would probably shout at the white player to retreat, and if he didn't, as soon as he interfered with play (or play headed towards him) I would call the penalty. I doubt I would be able to tell the difference between 10m and 12m in real time, because I couldn't tell it in the video until I had time to analyse the lines on the pitch.

I doubt anyone would argue.

 

[didds]

That's all fine - Ive no issue with that.

Broadly speaking though that unless helped by pitch lines in open play refs would probably err towards (say) 15m because 10m is difficult to gauge?

didds

 

[DocY]

That's all fine - Ive no issue with that.

Broadly speaking though that unless helped by pitch lines in open play refs would probably err towards (say) 15m because 10m is difficult to gauge?

didds

Personally, particularly early in the game I want to see players clearly on side and in situations where you have to be 10 meters back I'm going to look for 11-12 meters. If there are persistent infringements I'll usually advise players go back 15 meters 'just to make sure', which usually gets them 11-12 meters back (though I can't recall any instance of a team persistently being within 10m of where the ball lands).

That's just my preference, though - IME being very strict on offsides leads to a better game and being lax has the opposite effect and leads to flash points.

 

[ChuckieB]

Compelling evidence from Ian and Dickie E, both helping converge on an agreeable outcome at about the same time to help seal the deal.

Better the accompanying explanations, noting connections, developing an understanding rather than just endlessly quoting just chunks of law.

I suspect my on field response is now. "Try". And when complaints abound, I follow it up along the lines of, "Yeah, you and I both know what he was doing. I agree it is unfair, but it seems to be the widely accepted application of the laws".....I might even apologise!

Hopefully as a result of this, some will at least be prepared to indulge me on the the thought that it is at least a similar situation, when considered against actions of this type that are actually covered in the laws. Sadly it is not covered and the player gets away with something that has a direct bearing on the outcome of the game.


......


Ooh, just seeing BB's second yellow for the Hurricane's. See you all in a different thread perhaps?

 

[Phil E]

I suspect my on field response is now. "Try". And when complaints abound, I follow it up along the lines of, "Yeah, you and I both know what he was doing. I agree it is unfair, but it seems to be the widely accepted application of the laws".....I might even apologise!

I would suggest you don't say that...unless you want to lose all credibility as a referee!

 

[ChuckieB]

Personally, particularly early in the game I want to see players clearly on side and in situations where you have to be 10 meters back I'm going to look for 11-12 meters. If there are persistent infringements I'll usually advise players go back 15 meters 'just to make sure', which usually gets them 11-12 meters back (though I can't recall any instance of a team persistently being within 10m of where the ball lands).

That's just my preference, though - IME being very strict on offsides leads to a better game and being lax has the opposite effect and leads to flash points.

How does applying wiggle room help the game? Might it not, on the face of it, undermine your authority before you even start? To do such still means it could be a wrong call on one of the teams and with a larger margin for error and criticism?

so imo, strict enforcement, even if you call it wrong.

 

[ChuckieB]

I would suggest you don't say that...unless you want to lose all credibility as a referee!

i might leave the last part out! A ref should never apologise under such circumstances. A shrug of the shoulders at best!

 

[DocY]

How does applying wiggle room help the game? Might it not, on the face of it, undermine your authority before you even start? To do such still means it could be a wrong call on one of the teams and with a larger margin for error and criticism?

so imo, strict enforcement, even if you call it wrong.

I see it as removing wiggle room (which you might allow to creep in later in the game). It's being overly strict, but if you give two penalties for offside (or for anything else) in the first few minutes all the players are thinking "damn, he's strict on that", they'll do it far less than otherwise and you've nipped a problem in the bud.

If, on the other hand you have a couple of decisions where you think "he might not have been offside there, it wasn't C&O so I'll play on" they'll think the opposite and you'll end up pinging them all afternoon.

IMO it's particularly important for offsides, but the same thing applies for hands in the ruck or holding on - if you give some wiggle room to the players early on they'll do it all game.

 

[DocY]

i might leave the last part out! A ref should never apologise under such circumstances. A shrug of the shoulders at best!

I wouldn't even do that - be decisive, authoritative and concise: "He was played on side by the pass!" and leave it at that.

 

[ChrisR]

Loitering Upon The Wolds. Isn't that a village in Yorkshire?

 

[Pegleg]

Having followed this thread on and off, and with Ian's detailed analysis I am happy that the team got it right on the day and the try was good.

In reality though if this happens tomorrow I am in all likelihood going to call offside under 10m and not retreating becasue I wont have the time or the assistance to determine otherwise. I would probably shout at the white player to retreat, and if he didn't, as soon as he interfered with play (or play headed towards him) I would call the penalty. I doubt I would be able to tell the difference between 10m and 12m in real time, because I couldn't tell it in the video until I had time to analyse the lines on the pitch.

I doubt anyone would argue.

Agreed the law is clear. The play was legal. We however, have to deal with a different situation. No TMO, AR etc. We will judge 10 mtrs and it may in reality be slightly less or anything up to around 15. Generally we are advised to err on the side of too much rather than too little.As long as we are consistent the player will generally buy into it

 

[ChuckieB]

Agreed the law is clear. The play was legal. We however, have to deal with a different situation. No TMO, AR etc. We will judge 10 mtrs and it may in reality be slightly less or anything up to around 15. Generally we are advised to err on the side of too much rather than too little.As long as we are consistent the player will generally buy into it

If you go with what you see, that should be consistent enough shouldn't it.

 

[DocY]

This clip came up in the last society meeting and prompted a discussion around loitering.

The vast majority view was the same as on here - you wouldn't be loitering in a kick ahead situation - so I stand corrected.

 

[ChuckieB]

This clip came up in the last society meeting and prompted a discussion around loitering.

The vast majority view was the same as on here - you wouldn't be loitering in a kick ahead situation - so I stand corrected.

I have been steered into this same line of understanding, i.e. that loitering is almost allowed except in those phases of play where loitering is specifically referred to, i.e. those with defined offside lines e.g. rucks & mauls etc.

Leaves just the question that was raised, "What does the loitering provision in 11.9 actually add?".

Not a lot by all accounts?

 

[DocY]

Leaves just the question that was raised, "What does the loitering provision in 11.9 actually add?".

Not a lot by all accounts?

When the ball is out of the ruck or maul the ruck or maul has ended and we're back to open play. The law is saying that, even though it is open play you can't be played back on side in the usual ways.