Offside or not - advice please

[RUGBYBOOT]

I did my 4th game of my ELRA Part 3 yesterday, Gravesend 4th versus Old Gravesendians 2's and made a couple of offside calls which I am not entirely convinced were correct - although having said this I made them firmly and stuck to my decision at the time.

Scenerio 1 = Black versus Blue. Black were going forward and formed a ruck. Black 2 drove through the ruck and rucked a player out through the blue gate (no problem at all) - Blue then counter-rucked legally and the ball was picked up at the base by Blue 9 - he move away (2 feet - no more) with the ball in his hand and was tackled by the Black 2 who was coming back from the blue side having driven through the ruck moments earlier.

I penalised him for never retreating back onside - he stated the ball was out and therefore there was not offside line. I said he had no passed the ball or travelled and 5 metres from the ruck ( Black 2 is a newly trained ref !! - great !!)

Scenerio 2= Black going forward with ball and Blue 3 makes a tackle on the Black 22 metre line. Black retain possession before forming a ruck further up the pitch at the blue 22. Black formed a ruck and in slow time the ball came back through 9, to 10, to 12 who then passed it to 13 who was tackled from behind by Blue 3 who was still making his way back from the aforementioned tackle a minute or 2 earlier on the Black 22. Black complained he was offside. I did not penalise him. I said the ball had been passed 4 times and carried more than about 40 metres and therefore it was open play and he was not offside and allowed play to continue. I have to say I have read 'if it looks wrong then it probably is' and this definately looked wrong - but I went with this decision not to penalise him ??

Can someone with more experience give me some advice on these two situations please. Many thanks, Gary

 

[Phil E]

11.8 PUTTING ONSIDE A PLAYER RETIRING DURING A RUCK, MAUL,
SCRUM OR LINEOUT
When a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout forms, a player who is offside and is retiring as
required by Law remains offside even when the opposing team wins possession and the
ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended. The player is put onside by retiring behind the
applicable offside line. No other action of the offside player and no action of that player’s
team mates can put the offside player onside.
If the player remains offside the player can be put onside only by the action of the opposing
team. There are two such actions:
Opponent runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball has run 5 metres,
the offside player is put onside. An offside player is not put onside when an opponent
passes the ball. Even if the opponents pass the ball several times, their action does not put
the offside player onside.
Opponent kicks. When an opponent kicks the ball, the offside player is put onside.

In scenario 1 no one had put him onside.
In scenario 2 passing the ball does not put him onside, they need to run 5m or kick. (see bold).

So 1 correct, 2 incorrect.

EDIT: just re-read your post. In scenario 2 you say the ball was carried 40m as well as being passed, do you mean they ran 40m or passed it across 40m? If they ran it more than 5m you were correct, although the passing doesn't count as said before.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I agree with PhilE on scenario 1. At a Ruck/Maul, the offside lines may disappear, but players who were not onside (other than those bound into the Ruck/Maul) at the moment the offside lines disappear, are still offside.

In scenario 2, I am having difficulty understanding what you are describing, but my gut feeling is that since Blue 3 made the initial tackle, and then (after a ruck had been formed and the ball distributed) made the second tackle 40m away, then you were correct not to penalise him so long as at least one of the passers ran 5m with the ball.

 

[OB..]

Scenario 2 - you don't say a ruck formed. If it did, then I agree with Ian Cook (who infers that). If it did not, then of course there was no offside line at the tackle.

 

[Phil E]

Scenario 2 - you don't say a ruck formed. If it did, then I agree with Ian Cook (who infers that). If it did not, then of course there was no offside line at the tackle.

Scenerio 2= Black going forward with ball and Blue 3 makes a tackle on the Black 22 metre line. Black retain possession before forming a ruck further up the pitch at the blue 22. Black formed a ruck and in slow time the ball came back through 9, to 10, to 12

It did.

Scenario 2 hinges on whether the ball was passed across 40m or was run 5m as part of that process.

 

[RUGBYBOOT]

Gents, In scenerio 2 the ball was passed along the back line - No individual player ran 5 metres with the ball - it was passed 40 m. I guess from hat you're saying he was offside and should have been penalised ?

 

[Dickie E]

, then you were correct not to penalise him so long as at least one of the passers ran 5m with the ball.

Why does a passer need to run 5m? Law 11.3(b) only requires that a pass take place to put opponent on-side.

 

[Phil E]

Why does a passer need to run 5m? Law 11.3(b) only requires that a pass take place to put opponent on-side.

Dickie, 11.3 relates to general play.

11.8 refers to players retiring after a ruck or maul. i.e. lazy runners.

11.8 says An offside player is not put onside when an opponent
passes the ball. Even if the opponents pass the ball several times

 

[OB..]

Scenerio 2= Black going forward with ball and Blue 3 makes a tackle on the Black 22 metre line. Black retain possession before forming a ruck further up the pitch at the blue 22.

Phil E - the ruck mentioned was formed further up the pitch.

I said the ball had been passed 4 times and carried more than about 40 metres

Gents, In scenerio 2 the ball was passed along the back line - No individual player ran 5 metres with the ball - it was passed 40 m. I guess from hat you're saying he was offside and should have been penalised ?

I don't see how you can move the ball 40 metres with only 4 passes and yet no player ran 5 metres with the ball.

In any case, you start off playing advantage, but by 40 metres surely the advantage is over.

 

[didds]

I don't see how you can move the ball 40 metres with only 4 passes and yet no player ran 5 metres with the ball.

4 x 10m passes with passers all standing pretty much still (or running very little).

BBut I would agree that its a fairly unlikely scenario. Most centres for a start seem hell bent on finding the nearest large player and running into them anyway.

didds

 

[tim White]

Why are we not singing the praises of the prop who ran 40 m to make a cover tackle -seriously, even if wrong in law I am not going to penalise him -the offside event is so remote from the second tackle that it lacks credibility :Nerv:

 

[OB..]

4 x 10m passes with passers all standing pretty much still (or running very little).

The ball was 40m further forward (near the other 22m line).

 

[Adam]

The ball was 40m further forward (near the other 22m line).

I thought the OP meant that he never retired behind the offside line for the second ruck (near the other 22m line).

 

[The Fat]

I thought the OP meant that he never retired behind the offside line for the second ruck (near the other 22m line).

That's how I read it as well AJCarter.
Everyone else seem to be saying that it is OK for a player to stroll around in an offside position waiting for the ball to emerge from a subsequent ruck and then make a tackle.

 

[Rit Hinners]

That's how I read it as well AJCarter.
Everyone else seem to be saying that it is OK for a player to stroll around in an offside position waiting for the ball to emerge from a subsequent ruck and then make a tackle.

That's the way it sounds to me too.

Tim, perhaps the prop did not run 40m in pursuit. If the passes were deep enough he could have waited at (or retired only a short way from) the spot of the first tackle and then tackled the pass receiver.

Smacks of rewarding indolence.

 

[The Fat]

Rugbyboot,
This is how I read your 2nd Scenario.
Is this correct?

 

[RUGBYBOOT]

Think I am now more confused than I was before I asked the question :chin:

 

[RUGBYBOOT]

Hi mate - yes this exactly as it happened !! just like a lazy runner ( in the extreme !)

 

[The Fat]

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing you needed to check was if there were any offside blue players at the ruck (offside lines) as shown on the diagram. 3 blue was never onside during that ruck and then took part in the next phase by tackling 13 black. Don't worry that after the 1st tackle the play was advanced 40 metres and x number of passes, as soon as the ruck formed on blue's 22, there were set offside lines and blue 3 did not come back to his offside line. PK to Black for mine. Blue 3 offside.

 

[Dixie]

I'm with The Fat - unless any of Black's players ran 5m with the ball in their own hands. At my level, that's probably the scrum half crabbing across the pitch! :chin: