[Law] Offside support players

[Rich_NL]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Oq7Jh7CoGr4&t=54

Green 5, 10m offside, jogs up such that he's put onside in time to receive a pass and score. Penalise?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Oq7Jh7CoGr4&t=12

Yellow 2, 10m offside, jogs up such that he's put onside in time to make a 3 on 2 for the defence, but doesn't receive the ball. Penalise?

 

[Flish]

Yellow two nearly got in trouble when he made contact with the would be tackler, but in the end not material. Didn't see anything material in clip 1 (unless off camera).

Possibly have a word that if make no effort to get back they are running a risk, but at that level maybe not

 

[Arabcheif]

I'd blow up for the push by yellow 2 on Black 12, otherwise all is fine. Even if he get's the ball as long as he's behind the BC who passes to him. He's played onside when the BC passes him.

First clip again played onside before the pass, all is fine I reckon.

 

[Rich_NL]

10.4.b

 

[Flish]

10.4.b

Yup, may be penalised, didn’t see anything massively material or disadvantaging the opposition so no ping from me

 

[Treadmore]

Green 5 so far offside he wasn't in the picture for a while!

No way he would have been in a position to receive that ball if he hadn't jogged forward whilst 10m offside so yeah , material.

 

[crossref]

Great question.

Players offside at a ruck have an obligation to put themselves onside without delay (10.11.a). But players who are merely offside in open play do not have that obligation.

Offside players cannot move forward toward the ball, but in both Green 5 and Yellow 2 move forward away from the ball

Both Green 5 and Yellow 2 are eventually put onside when the ball carrier overtakes them

So
-- Its arguable that Green puts himself offside at the ruck and never retires .. so falls foul of 10.11.a (but I am not sure of that watching the brief clip on my phone) if so PK

Otherwise try in both cases

Good question

 

[Phil E]

Green 5 is ONside at the ruck (he is behind the scrum halfs pass).
He then jogs forward in open play and is onside when he receives the ball.
If you penalise that you are going to have a lot of people scratching their heads.
Remember clear and obvious. Players are offside in open play all the time so if you penalise Green 5 you are going to have to follow that through and watch ever player who is in front of the ball carrier in open play.....best of luck with that.

Same with Yellow 2.

Remember, look for reasons not to blow the whistle. Both of these videos show that "yes" you could stretch the law to make a case for a penalty in both cases, but they are not clear and obvious and no one will complain. If you blow up that may be different.

 

[Rich_NL]

Offside players cannot move forward toward the ball, but in both Green 5 and Yellow 2 move forward away from the ball

He starts in the middle of the pitch at his own 10m line, 10m ahead of the ball. He's put onside at the 15m line near the oppo's 22, 2m away from his player. How can he possibly have moved away from the ball? He seems to have moved at least 20m closer sideways and 10m lengthways.

Green 5 is ONside at the ruck (he is behind the scrum halfs pass).
He then jogs forward in open play and is onside when he receives the ball.

I agree with the ruck, I'm talking offside in open play. He jogs forward in an offside position; his teammate played the ball 10m or more behind him. I don't think there's any way he'd have been in such close support (2m to the right and level) if he had had to wait to be onside before advancing - a lock, getting up to backs speed and catching up? So it's material under 10.4.b, no?

Remember, look for reasons not to blow the whistle. Both of these videos show that "yes" you could stretch the law to make a case for a penalty in both cases, but they are not clear and obvious and no one will complain. If you blow up that may be different.

I agree, but they seemed so clear and obvious to me that I thought it worth asking here. I appreciate you often see scrum-halves and flankers drifting across in front of the ball to the next breakdown, but this is supporting a line break with a 10m start.

 

[Phil E]

I agree, but they seemed so clear and obvious to me that I thought it worth asking here. I appreciate you often see scrum-halves and flankers drifting across in front of the ball to the next breakdown, but this is supporting a line break with a 10m start.

Question to ask yourself: Is this a case of things that look wrong, but actually aren't?

 

[Rich_NL]

• 10.4 An offside player may be penalised, if that player:
  • b. Moves forwards towards the ball

I don't think so, as it's material for the reasons I gave. But I'm interested to know if I misunderstand offside in open play.

 

[Phil E]

• 10.4 An offside player may be penalised, if that player:
  • b. Moves forwards towards the ball

I don't think so, as it's material for the reasons I gave. But I'm interested to know if I misunderstand offside in open play.

I don't think you have, but I think 10.4b is just one of those laws that no one uses.

 

[Flish]

I could imagine that if he's offside, and In close proximity to a player trying to gather the ball (not from a kick
as that's separately covered) or in some other way puts the player off / affects his decision making by his position then yes, maybe that's really material and gets pinged - probably know it if you see it

 

[crossref]

10.4.b is thinking of the kick scenario .. if you are offside and the ball is kicked in front of you, you have to stop

 

[ChrisR]

[LAWS]1. A player is offside in open play if that player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the
ball or who last played it. An offside player must not interfere with play. This includes :
a. Playing the ball.
b. Tackling the ball-carrier.
c. Preventing the opposition from playing as they wish.
[/LAWS]

The violation is not being in an offside position, It is this.

Did Green 5 or Yellow 2 do this before they were put onside?

PS. Yellow 2's push may not have been material but it looked deliberate. Wouldn't argue with a whistle for that.

 

[crossref]

the push is a red herring, because a push is an offence all the time, whether you are offside or not.

the interesting question is whether, once offside, you can run up the pitch to get yourself into a useful position up ahead, in anticipation of the ball carrier catching up with you

 

[Arabcheif]

I'd suggest once you're played onside, it's irrelevant what you did before (expect with a Kick chase), otherwise we'd need all players to retire to the "Onside line" before being allowed to rejoin play.

 

[chbg]

the push is a red herring, because a push of a player who is not carrying the ballis an offence all the time, whether you are offside or not.

the interesting question is whether, once offside, you can run up the pitch to get yourself into a useful position up ahead, in anticipation of the ball carrier catching up with you

FTFY msf

 

[chbg]

Consider the number of times that a law states "must". This one uses "may" be penalised.

There will be many more occasions when (in particular) a back-row forward tracks across the field towards where she expects the break-down to occur, in front of the ball up until just before she engages in play again. Termed good tactical understanding.

 

[crossref]

FTFY msf

Well, you knew what I meant, but if you want to spell it out you would have to say

A push to a player who is not carrying the ball is an offence
(apart from in scrums , rucks and mauls of course, and also with the exception of a hand off which is another legal push to a non ball carrier .. but in this case only so long as it is not a push with excessive force )

Which is why I didn't bother to spell it out ..

Anyway I ftfy