Offside when ball goes dead

[Jarrod Burton]

I think the 10m rule would apply - the law says:

Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately behind an onside team-mate or an imaginary line across the field 10 metres on that player’s side from where the ball is caught or lands

Do even being 20m laterally from the player, but 5m down field from the catcher is still offside.

 

[Dickie E]

I think the 10m rule would apply - the law says:

Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately behind an onside team-mate or an imaginary line across the field 10 metres on that player’s side from where the ball is caught or lands

Do even being 20m laterally from the player, but 5m down field from the catcher is still offside.

Yes, good call. It used to be a circle of 10m radius.

 

[crossref]

where this issue normally comes up is when two teams are playing ping-ping -- the opposing back threes are kicking the ball back and forth.

The other players - let's say the forwards - are basically standing still. As the ball is kicked back and forth they become alternately offside and onside, but are not interfering with play and not moving forward, so fine.
Then the ball actually goes out. Can they run to defend the quick throw?

I'd say yes : as long as while the ball was in play they were not moving forward (or were retreating if the 10m law applied) they are now OK to run to defend the quick throw.

 

[Camquin]

Crossref, a question, can they move forward:

1 - as soon as the ball is dead.
2 - as soon as the quick throw is no longer on.

And a supplemental, in which decade would any clarification make it into the law book.

 

[crossref]

Crossref, a question, can they move forward:

1 - as soon as the ball is dead.
2 - as soon as the quick throw is no longer on.

And a supplemental, in which decade would any clarification make it into the law book.

I don't know that answer for sure , WR aren't definitive but I think the answer is 1, so

.. While the ball is in flight they must stand still (or retire if 10m law applies)

... Once ball is in touch they can run forward

But others may well disagree and I don't think we can know for sure what WR would say if asked

 

[Jarrod Burton]

Crossref, a question, can they move forward:

1 - as soon as the ball is dead.
2 - as soon as the quick throw is no longer on.

And a supplemental, in which decade would any clarification make it into the law book.

Given you only make the ball dead by blowing your whistle, I'd have to say number 2. Plenty of LO's I won't whistle up unless a player wants a QTI and its not on.

 

[Pinky]

In general terms is it legal to station yourself motionless 40m upfield , waiting for ball to arrive ?

Only until your side kick and then you are offside and may have to retire under the 10m rule

 

[crossref]

Only until your side kick and then you are offside and may have to retire under the 10m rule

Or until a ruck or maul happens and then you have to retire

 

[Marc Wakeham]

For me, a ball going into touch is a bit of a Zombie ball or even a "Schrödinger's" ball is it alive or dead? If it can be resussitated but a QTI then it stays alive. So any player who is "offside" can't stay with in 10 or move toward where the ball will be playd (QTI). Only when the QTI is no longer an options is the ball well and truly dead. Then the players can advance to the line of touch. In doing so they are not gaining from their previous "offence".

Many years ago (Cardiff V Leinster. HC) that is how the referee applied the law and it seems equitable to me.

As said WR may feel differently.

 

[crossref]

Many years ago (Cardiff V Leinster. HC) that is how the referee applied the law and it seems equitable to me.

wasn't that a scenario where they were always moving forward *before* the ball went dead ... ?

 

[Marc Wakeham]

wasn't that a scenario where they were always moving forward *before* the ball went dead ... ?

No, one of the forward was within 10 and standing still.A QTI was available and so pinnged.

 

[crossref]

No, one of the forward was within 10 and standing still.A QTI was available and so pinnged.

i.e should have been retreating.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Yes before the ball went into touch . The point of the post was about the offside lines pre touch were still considered valid by the referee as the ball was in touch. So he clearly felt the ball not to be dead.

 

[crossref]

Yes before the ball went into touch . The point of the post was about the offside lines pre touch were still considered valid by the referee as the ball was in touch. So he clearly felt the ball not to be dead.

I think where the player was offending before the ball was in touch (i.e. going fwd or not retreating) then they cannot defend the QTI

The point that is uncertain is the player who is completely legal (staying still / retreating) up to when the ball goes out. ... Can he then advance and defend the QTI (I think yes, but it's not really settled either way)

 

[Marc Wakeham]

The referee's call was he could not stay and defend the QTI. Had a QTI not been an option then the offside lines dissapear and he could have stayed.

So, once again the ref on the day felt the offside lines were still in play because the ball was not dead in the sense that a QTI was an option. Hed there been no option for a QTI then the ball would have been dead meaning no offside lines exist anymore.

I am just saying what the ref said his reasoning was.

I'm out now as it is just the same post over and over.

 

[crossref]

You missed the point, alas

 

[Dickie E]

I'm with CR on this.

Law 6:

The referee will deem the ball to be dead when:
The ball is in touch or touch in-goal.

The referee carries a whistle and blows it:
When the ball becomes dead, other than after a failed conversion kick.

So there is no basis in law for zombie ball or Schrödinger's ball. When the ball goes into touch the ball is dead and the referee should blow his/her whistle.

 

[Jarrod Burton]

I'm with CR on this.

Law 6:

The referee will deem the ball to be dead when:
The ball is in touch or touch in-goal.

The referee carries a whistle and blows it:
When the ball becomes dead, other than after a failed conversion kick.

So there is no basis in law for zombie ball or Schrödinger's ball. When the ball goes into touch the ball is dead and the referee should blow his/her whistle.

We should blow the ball dead when in touch, but that doesn't happen regularly, even at elite levels, so the ball isn't technically dead - which is where the zombie ball confusion comes in. I'll admit that if I think there is a QTI on I won't blow as it just serves to confuse the players here who will think the QTI is not available.

I suppose not whistling paints you into a corner somewhat, but if I can keep out of the match as much as possible I will.

 

[crossref]

I think that whether or not the whistle is blown is a red herring for this one

a zombie ball is traditionally where the ball can be played (and brought to life) by one team only . So when a PK, 22DO or GLDO is awarded ... and when the ball is in touch but the QTI is on. In all those situations the ball is zombie dead ... not completely dead as one of the teams can play it without warning.

In all of those situations the whistle has definitely been blown, with the exception of the last where there is a recent trend to not blow whistle if QTI is on.

 

[crossref]

Schrodinger's Ball is a ball that is either "out" of a ruck or perhaps just "coming out" , and it depends on the player's next action.
If a player picks up or kicks the ball.... that's OK as it was out
But if a play dives on the ball .... it was not OK as it wasn't out at all, it was only "coming out"