Options from a knock on

[crossref]

that other thread caused me to scrutinise this Law, and something is odd about it

Definitions

Knock-on:

When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

Law

11 Knock-on or throw forward

Knock-on

11.1 A knock-on may occur anywhere in the playing area.

11.2 It is a knock-on when a player, in tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent, makes contact with the ball and the ball goes forward. Sanction: Scrum (if the ball goes into touch, the non-offending team may opt instead for a quick-throw or lineout).

11.3 A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction: Penalty.

11.4 It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.

11.5 The ball is not knocked-on, and play continues, if:
a. A player knocks the ball forward immediately after an opponent has kicked it (charge down).
b. A player rips or knocks the ball from an opponent and the ball goes forward from the opponent’s hand or arm.

Throw forward

11.6 A throw forward may occur anywhere in the playing area. Sanction: Scrum.
11.7 A player must not intentionally throw or pass the ball forward. Sanction: Penalty.

Thoughts
A - I guess the option in 11.2 is not specific to the scenario in 11.2 (knock on in a tackle) and applies to any knock on, but it's not really very well written

B - Interestingly, I notice no option to take a lineout/quickthrow after a throw-forward into touch. I feel pretty sure that when it has happened, I have offered option. Oops

 

[didds]

i read 11.2 to explain that causing the ball to go forward when tackling does not absolve one form "penalty" - it removes any choice over whether the ball carrier is the reason the ball went forward (for the tackler) or backward (for the BC)

??

 

[Dickie E]

B - Interestingly, I notice no option to take a lineout/quickthrow after a throw-forward into touch. I feel pretty sure that when it has happened, I have offered option. Oops

I would have done same as you. Rugby laws ... the gift that keeps on giving

 

[crossref]

i read 11.2 to explain that causing the ball to go forward when tackling does not absolve one form "penalty" - it removes any choice over whether the ball carrier is the reason the ball went forward (for the tackler) or backward (for the BC)

??

yes- but does the lineout option in 11.2 only apply in the special tackle situation? Or does it apply to any KO that goes into touch?

 

[Balones]

that other thread caused me to scrutinise this Law, and something is odd about it

Definitions

Knock-on:

When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

Law

11 Knock-on or throw forward

Knock-on

11.1 A knock-on may occur anywhere in the playing area.

11.2 It is a knock-on when a player, in tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent, makes contact with the ball and the ball goes forward. Sanction: Scrum (if the ball goes into touch, the non-offending team may opt instead for a quick-throw or lineout).

11.3 A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction: Penalty.

11.4 It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.

11.5 The ball is not knocked-on, and play continues, if:
a. A player knocks the ball forward immediately after an opponent has kicked it (charge down).
b. A player rips or knocks the ball from an opponent and the ball goes forward from the opponent’s hand or arm.

Throw forward

11.6 A throw forward may occur anywhere in the playing area. Sanction: Scrum.
11.7 A player must not intentionally throw or pass the ball forward. Sanction: Penalty.

Thoughts
A - I guess the option in 11.2 is not specific to the scenario in 11.2 (knock on in a tackle) and applies to any knock on, but it's not really very well written

B - Interestingly, I notice no option to take a lineout/quickthrow after a throw-forward into touch. I feel pretty sure that when it has happened, I have offered option. Oops

I have been dealing with this exact situation towards the end of last season and was thinking of posting it here.
During last season I observed four instances where there were forward passes into touch. Three were L4 and one at L6. What the ref did varied. One offered an option. One gave a lineout and two gave a scrum.
The Laws since the 2018 ‘simplification’ doesn’t provide for an option. They did in 2017, (Law 12) There is a suggestion of an option in the grid for when to award a scrum.
The reason for the ‘confusion’ I would suggest is that we are now getting referees coming through the levels that were not refereeing prior to 2018. That was the case in my observations.
As a result of my observations I raised the matter with RFU Laws. There was agreement that there is now some confusion and the question of tweaking the laws to avoid this and to get back to the 2017 situation was put to WR. They responded by saying that it would be an item on the law revue This year. I was told that this usually takes place in August.
I am waiting to see if this is going to actually happen.
The expectation is that there should be an option as per 2017. Every referee I have seen who has been refereeing since before 2018 gives an option. Until I made these observations I also thought I was incorrect After checking the ‘simplified’ laws.

 

[crossref]

if they tweak the Law I hope it clarifies A as well as restoring the option on B

 

[chbg]

that other thread caused me to scrutinise this Law, and something is odd about it

Definitions

Knock-on:

When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

Law

11 Knock-on or throw forward

Knock-on

11.1 A knock-on may occur anywhere in the playing area.

11.2 It is a knock-on when a player, in tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent, makes contact with the ball and the ball goes forward. Sanction: Scrum (if the ball goes into touch, the non-offending team may opt instead for a quick-throw or lineout).



Thoughts
A - I guess the option in 11.2 is not specific to the scenario in 11.2 (knock on in a tackle) and applies to any knock on, but it's not really very well written

B - Interestingly, I notice no option to take a lineout/quickthrow after a throw-forward into touch. I feel pretty sure that when it has happened, I have offered option. Oops

The sanction in 11.2 should be written against 11.1. As simple as that.

 

[crossref]

So, as it stands right now, what is the correct thing to do for a throw forward into touch ?

Scrum, no option I would say

 

[Balones]

So, as it stands right now, what is the correct thing to do for a throw forward into touch ?

Scrum, no option I would say

The only way anyone could argue against that is to quote the 2017 law book and say that supposedly there were no changes to the law in the ‘simplification’ the following year.

 

[crossref]

which might have worked in 2018, but it's too long ago now !

 

[KML1]

Both of these will be corrected! Forward pass into touch should be a choice (was missed in 18 simplification and not put back in)

Sanction for 11.2 will also show in 11.1 - prob sooner on website than the FW pass issue) when I've completed some tech work.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Both of these will be corrected! Forward pass into touch should be a choice (was missed in 18 simplification and not put back in)

Sanction for 11.2 will also show in 11.1 - prob sooner on website than the FW pass issue) when I've completed some tech work.

Common sense.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

A re-write simplifying the law book is needed. I can't think why WR did not think of it before.

 

[Balones]

Interesting observation.
France v Scotland - 57mins - Scotland forward pass into touch. Nic Berry awarded scrum with no option offered.
I think he was reffing before the simplification.

 

[crossref]

Interesting observation.
France v Scotland - 57mins - Scotland forward pass into touch. Nic Berry awarded scrum with no option offered.
I think he was reffing before the simplification.

But meanwhile in the England Wales game I am pretty sure that I heard options being given !

 

[Balones]

But meanwhile in the England Wales game I am pretty sure that I heard options being given !

That was for a knock-on into touch.

 

[crossref]

That was for a knock-on into touch.

Was it, I thought I heard the ref saying forward pass .. but it was a chaotic game !

 

[Rich_NL]

"Chaotic" is a generous choice of adjective...

 

[crossref]

South African throw forward into touch ... Angus Gardner offers options

 

[DocP]

I saw that and immediatly thought of this thread. Not sure if it was a mistake on AG's part or a correct decision. Law book seems to imply otherwise