own player - dangerous drop

[Browner]

Somehow the game has developed an allowance for a kick off catcher to be lifted ( ?!?!? Presumably to stick a safety zone around the 'sitting duck' catcher)

I don't remember who, but a Scotland player was dropped from a considerable height and landed on his head/shoulder such that his neck was bent under impact. That outcome was similar/ equivalent in player welfare danger to that of a 'lift tackle' a 'line out drop' or 'upturning a jumping catcher' where contact with the ground mirrors the spinal risks.

Q? so should own team players who drop/ endanger teammates receive sanction, if their actions are reckless or poorly executed?

 

[The Fat]

Somehow the game has developed an allowance for a kick off catcher to be lifted ( ?!?!? Presumably to stick a safety zone around the 'sitting duck' catcher)

I don't remember who, but a Scotland player was dropped from a considerable height and landed on his head/shoulder such that his neck was bent under impact. That outcome was similar/ equivalent in player welfare danger to that of a 'lift tackle' a 'line out drop' or 'upturning a jumping catcher' where contact with the ground mirrors the spinal risks.

Q? so should own team players who drop/ endanger teammates receive sanction, if their actions are reckless or poorly executed?

In answer to your question, ABSOLUTELY!!!
There is actually a Law Clarification to back that view.
If it is considered Dangerous Play to propel your own jumper forward and therefore not bring him down safely, it would not be hard to sell penalising the lifter in the situation you describe.

Clarification 2 2015

Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee

Ruling

2-2015


Union / HP Ref Manager

Paddy O'Brien


Law Reference

10,19


Date

2 March 2015


Request

The following clip shows the action of a team throwing a player forward after he has been supported in the air to receive a kick off. This is a new practice which was first tried in Las Vegas Sevens last week. No other team as yet has replicated the tactic:

Example

Law 19 .10 (g) refers to the lowering of a player in a lineout after the ball has been won: "Players who support a jumping team-mate must lower that player to the ground as soon as the ball has been won by a player of either team."

There is no law reference to the lowering of a player after the ball has been won from either a kick off or a kick in general play.

The throwing of a player forward towards the opposition is not covered in Law 10 (Foul Play).

The only reference in the Law Book which covers this action is contained in the foreword on page 3:

"Rugby Union is a sport which involves physical contact. Any sport involving physical contact has inherent dangers. It is very important that players play the Game in accordance with the Laws of the Game and be mindful of the safety of themselves and others.

"It is the responsibility of those who coach or teach the Game to ensure that players are prepared in a manner which ensures compliance with the Laws of the Game and in accordance with safe practices."

I therefore ask for clarification from the Designated Members as to whether the actions in the attached clip constitutes Dangerous Play.

Clarification in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee

The Designated Members have considered the question and the action of throwing a player forward after he has been supported in the air to receive a kick off does constitute dangerous play.

 

[didds]

extension: wjhat about a player that jumps and propels himself forwards towards the opposition?

didds

 

[Browner]

extension: what about a player that jumps and propels himself forwards towards the opposition?

didds

Self propulsion is different, because you are in control of your own action & make your own decisions on timing etc..

 

[chrismtl]

I would say that the clarification is different that what the OP is asking. The clarification is about a lifter throwing a player forward, not accidentally dropping a player who is lifted, or a player who is getting lifted jumps forward (as was the situation in the Scotland match).

The issue that the law clarification clears up is when you throw a lifted player into an opponent (that's what happened), which puts not just the lifted player in danger, but also the opponent who's getting a flying player thrown into him.

 

[didds]

The issue that the law clarification clears up is when you throw a lifted player into an opponent (that's what happened), which puts not just the lifted player in danger, but also the opponent who's getting a flying player thrown into him.

Indeed. hence my query above what about a player that jumps and propels himself forwards towards the opposition?

what is the difference? aside from who does the propelling? The net result is the same.

didds

 

[chrismtl]

Indeed. hence my query above what about a player that jumps and propels himself forwards towards the opposition?

what is the difference? aside from who does the propelling? The net result is the same.

didds

I'd say that any player who jumps in any direction except straight up puts himself (and potentially other players) in danger. It's not uncommon to see players falling sideways or backwards because they didn't jump properly. Can one really differentiate between a player going forwards and one who goes sideways or backwards? The result of landing on their head seems to be standard across all directions of jump. So at that point would you penalize the player that put his own welfare in danger? Or would you penalize a coach for forcing the player to go up or else he looses his starting spot and associated salary? What about the trickle down effect where you don't have a doctor/first responders/ambulance at a local match and the same thing is attempted but a guy breaks his neck?

I can't actually find any law that either allows or disallows a player from lifting his teammate to receive a kick, so I would say that is the main issue. If it's going to be part of the game, then WR needs to say what is allowed and what is disallowed. I would say that if a player is lifted and ends up on his head as a result of his own teammate, then it should be considered dangerous play. What team would want to give away a kickable penalty in the first 10 seconds of a match because they can't support their teammate? That would almost certainly deal with the problem. This only ever happens at kickoffs anyways, so just add 1 line to the kickoff law:

[LAWS]Lowering a Player. Players who support a jumping team-mate must safely lower that player to the ground as soon as the ball has been won by a player of either team.
Sanction: Penalty Kick[/LAWS]

 

[crossref]

I don't think you should be allowed to lift a team mate in open play if there are any opponents nearby.. it is obstruction as the person doing the lifting is preventing the opponents from tackling the ball carrier.

 

[Taff]

I don't think you should be allowed to lift a team mate in open play if there are any opponents nearby.. it is obstruction as the person doing the lifting is preventing the opponents from tackling the ball carrier.

Exactly. Why else would they do it?

 

[OB..]

I don't think you should be allowed to lift a team mate in open play if there are any opponents nearby.. it is obstruction as the person doing the lifting is preventing the opponents from tackling the ball carrier.

Exactly. Why else would they do it?

WR has said that the lifters must not be in front of the catcher so that when he lands he can be tackled. Referees were enjoined to penalise lifters in front of the catcher - and they do.

Ifa player jumps when running, he will mover forward in eth air. You canpredict his trajectory.

If he is thrown by a team-mate, you cannot predict.

 

[crossref]

WR has said that the lifters must not be in front of the catcher so that when he lands he can be tackled. Referees were enjoined to penalise lifters in front of the catcher - and they do..

if he lands -- of course he can just stay up there for a second, protected from tacklers, and then pass it.

 

[Browner]

Indeed. hence my query above what about a player that jumps and propels himself forwards towards the opposition?

what is the difference? aside from who does the propelling? The net result is the same.

didds

But the culpability isn't the same.
A Valiant attempt Didds, but very wide of your target !

 

[Browner]

I don't think you should be allowed to lift a team mate in open play if there are any opponents nearby..

it is obstruction as the person doing the lifting is preventing the opponents from tackling the ball carrier.

And also , no nearby opponents = no need to do it

I agree - of course its obstruction - it should never have been allowed into open play, it was a inappropriate solution to the problem of smashing a standing catcher.

However, Catcher Evolution has thankfully found its own solution, the sanctions against smashing a jumping catcher are sufficient to dissuade likely assailants, and therefore open field lifting should now be removed from the game IMO.

 

[crossref]

And also , no nearby opponents = no need to do it

well, you might - for instance - lift at a touchline to catch a PK kick that would otherwise go into touch. If there is no opponent nearby (quite likely in this scenario) this is fine.

 

[The Fat]

Have a look at this one then.
It is the lift and throw of a player in a 7s tournament that prompted Clarification 2 2015
WTF was the coach thinking when they practiced this at training?

 

[Browner]

Probably the same coach who invented open field lifting, ....just coz the law book doesn't say you can't do it....

But wait. ....If x4 of you lift a player up, and then run down the field with him carried above you , then presumably that's not barred either !!

 

[The Fat]

But wait. ....If x4 of you lift a player up, and then run down the field with him carried above you , then presumably that's not barred either !!

Providing they do it like this so that the opposition can get to the ball carrier
View attachment 3199

 

[Browner]

Providing they do it like this so that the opposition can get to the ball carrier
View attachment 3199

No way, that's gotta be striking with your teammates head !

 

[crossref]

Probably the same coach who invented open field lifting, ....just coz the law book doesn't say you can't do it....

But wait. ....If x4 of you lift a player up, and then run down the field with him carried above you , then presumably that's not barred either !!

Maybe it's a coach who systematically ignores conventional thinking!

 

[Browner]

Maybe it's a coach who systematically ignores conventional thinking!

Ha ha, very good, except I was talking about Legal rugby acts that fall within Law 7, whereas those lifts arent.

Whatever next , a line out catcher like this !!