Penalty faux pas

[ruareftrev91]

At a recent level 8 league game red were awarded a penalty kick in their own 22. Red 10 went to kick the ball from hand into touch, released the ball then missed it completely doing an 'air shot'. The referee gave a scrum at the mark to green. After much chuckling at the kicking ability of red 10, red coach disagreed with the decision stating "as the ball hadn't been kicked, it was not live thus it should have been re-taken".

What's the correct decision? Monthly society meeting was split on the outcome.

 

[crossref]

I think
- its a correct decision
- but in some games, in some circumstances, may be more empathatic to let him have another bite at cherry .

 

[Davet]

I would probably agree with the coach - ball becomes live again when moved by the boot, or if scrum option taken when it is put into the scrum.

If the 10 for example did that bounce the ball and carch again thing before taking the kick would we give a knock on? Or same action by 9 before putting to scrum? I would seriously doubt it.

But I haven't ever had to worry about it before so that's just an instinctive reaction.

 

[DrSTU]

Correct decision, if the coach wants to be pedantic you could say that he played the ball through the mark incorrectly.

 

[the magpie]

If the red 10 picked the ball up and attempted to kick it again, then that is OK, as no kick has been taken.

If the red 10 picked the ball up and attempted to play on, then award a scrum.

If everyone is standing around not knowing what to do, blow the whistle, and give the red 10 another shot.

The only time I would award a scrum for an air swing would be at a FK, and only really if there was an opposition player attempting a charge down.

All in all, I side with the coach on this one.

 

[OB..]

If a kick-off or drop out is taken incorrectly,the opposition has a choice of scrum or re-take kick.

Law 21.3 (a) specifies how a penalty should be taken but there is no sanction specifically attached to that sub-paragraph. Oddly, (b) and (c) both have the same sanction. My belief is that it ought to apply to (a) as well: scrum to opposition.

 

[Taff]

At a recent level 8 league game red were awarded a penalty kick in their own 22. Red 10 went to kick the ball from hand into touch, released the ball then missed it completely doing an 'air shot'. The referee gave a scrum at the mark to green. After much chuckling at the kicking ability of red 10, red coach disagreed with the decision stating "as the ball hadn't been kicked, it was not live thus it should have been re-taken". What's the correct decision? Monthly society meeting was split on the outcome.

I would agree with the coach. The ball was dead, and hasn't been back into play yet. As it was a PK the oppos couldn't charge anyway, so I would have just asked him to take it again.

Imagine if he was lining up the kick and the ball slipped out of his hand, would you give a knock on? I doubt it as the ball was still dead. I would treat this the same.

If a kick-off or drop out is taken incorrectly,the opposition has a choice of scrum or re-take kick.

I can see the logic, but until the ball's been kicked, I would suggest the kick-off hasn't even been taken yet.

 

[DrSTU]

So, the player can now have a few warm up kicks in before he kicks it (like at golf)?

 

[OB..]

Imagine if he was lining up the kick and the ball slipped out of his hand, would you give a knock on? I doubt it as the ball was still dead. I would treat this the same.

Drops the ball = no attempt to kick. Start again. Air shot = failed attempt. Scrum. IMHO.

Not properly covered in the Laws (and I am not surprised!).

Law 20.4 (d) "any other irregularity" ?

 

[Dickie E]

we have all see the SH place the ball on the mark then "pretend" to take the quick tap. Is this any different? Maybe intent is the key.

 

[Taff]

So, the player can now have a few warm up kicks in before he kicks it (like at golf)?

Apart from time wasting (unlikely surely) if he wanted a "warm up kick", I don't think the lawbook prevents him having one if he held the ball in his hands, or left it on the floor. Is this really any different?

 

[MattB]

At a recent level 8 league game red were awarded a penalty kick in their own 22. Red 10 went to kick the ball from hand into touch, released the ball then missed it completely doing an 'air shot'. The referee gave a scrum at the mark to green. After much chuckling at the kicking ability of red 10, red coach disagreed with the decision stating "as the ball hadn't been kicked, it was not live thus it should have been re-taken".

What's the correct decision? Monthly society meeting was split on the outcome.

The decision was 100% correct (Law 6.A.4 (a) The referee is the sole judge of fact and of Law during a match...) but I think you are asking what will be the correct decision next time. I think we need to remind ourselves and others of this difference if we want the respect for referees to remain (return) in rugby. I hope the coach disagreed after the match.

But to answer your question, in juniors, I would allow the kick to be taken (again), seniors I would allow the kick again (the player has had punishment enough with the embarrassment). If you award the scrum, does being awarded a penalty equate with moving forward? {20.4 (d)} This will determine who throws the ball into the scrum.

 

[Dickie E]

In a general sense this kind of thing could happen at any restart. Ball slips out of hooker's hand as he preparing to throw into lineout, for instance. Where there is no intent to restart incorrectly (ie it is an accident) I would allow the player to take the restart again.

 

[talbazar]

Correct decision, if the coach wants to be pedantic you could say that he played the ball through the mark incorrectly.

Well, my thought is the ref' giving the scrum is more pedantic than the coach on his remark there.
If you want to apply the law by the letter, then so be it, but as far as I remember, there's no notion of intent in the law on that matter, so red 10 didn't kick it.

More importantly, I'd use my first referee coach words: "Manage it!"
Blow the whistle, tell everyone we're doing that again, properly, and the first round of beer after the game is on red 10...

Pierre.

 

[Taff]

.... If you award the scrum, does being awarded a penalty equate with moving forward? {20.4 (d)} This will determine who throws the ball into the scrum.

If you decide it's an incorrectly taken kick, the book says it's an opposition scrum at the mark or a kick again.

Personally I think all 30 players etc would expect you to ask him to take it again.

 

[DrSTU]

I think in a high level competitive game they would expect the scrum. Social rugby, retake yes but not in a high level league game.

If you decide it's an incorrectly taken kick, the book says it's an opposition scrum at the mark or a kick again.

Personally I think all 30 players etc would expect you to ask him to take it again.

 

[ddjamo]

I'm sure glad I never played when most of you were refereeing. turning the ball over inside the 22 is a HUGE turnover for a grey area especially if it was complete accident. not even close to what our duty is out there to facilitate a match. by whiffing it did not infringe at all. that is a referee call - not an infringement.

take the piss and re kick.

 

[Dickie E]

I think in a high level competitive game they would expect the scrum. Social rugby, retake yes but not in a high level league game.

But where would your cut-off be? If he approached to kick but the ball slipped out of hands - would that be a scrum too?

If he took the kick 2 metres to the left of the mark - would that be a scrum?

 

[DrSTU]

The problem is that you lot would be happy for him to take a few practice swings before getting it right and I wouldn't. If he approached the kick and didn't try and kick it then just take it again, the scenario here is that he has started to take the kick and fluff it. I don't see why there should be a reward for the lack of skill.

But where would your cut-off be? If he approached to kick but the ball slipped out of hands - would that be a scrum too?

If he took the kick 2 metres to the left of the mark - would that be a scrum?

 

[Dickie E]

The problem is that you lot would be happy for him to take a few practice swings before getting it right and I wouldn't.

That isn't the problem at all. I've never seen anyone take practice swings and doubt that I ever will.

The question is this: is it equitable that, having given away a penalty offence, a team then gets the feed at the scrum because the opponent has dropped the ball, slipped over in the mud, etc.?