[Law] Penalty or restart?

[DocY]

I think I know the answer, but it wouldn't hurt to hear some other opinions.

The situation is this: It's the last play of the game and red score a try.

After the try, there's foul play from blue.

Do we now restart with a penalty, even though there otherwise wouldn't be a restart? I'd expect so, but the wording of 10.4 ("...the place where play would restart...") makes me doubt myself.

 

[crossref]

what's the score?

 

[L'irlandais]

[laws]5.7 Other time regulations
(e) .... If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

(g) A team scoring a try near the end of the match may take the conversion kick or not. Providing they decline to take the kick or take the kick within the time remaining, a restart will occur and the match will end at the next stoppage within Law. Time is taken from the strike on the ball.[/laws]
+
[laws]13.1 Where and how the kick-off is taken
(a) A team kicks off with a drop kick which must be taken at or behind the centre of the half way line.[/laws]

Let Red take their conversion attempt and Restart with Penalty to Red on the half way line? Not sure the referee should be influenced by the score ; cannot finish the game on a penalty.

 

[DocY]

what's the score?

I think that's a whole different kettle of fish, but let's assume that red would want the PK, rather than full time.

 

[Camquin]

If you award the penalty - Red can choose to end the game.

In the North they can kick a penalty into touch if they do not want to play on.
From next season, or in the South, they need to tap and then boot into touch.

Interestingly, I note that the law rewrite - which is welcome - does not include a player in front of the kicker.

 

[crossref]

what's the score?

I think that's a whole different kettle of fish, but let's assume that red would want the PK, rather than full time.

well, if red are going to kick the PK to touch to end the game I don't see the benefit of bringing 30 players back to the half way line to do that (and what if they missed touch, blue scored and red lost a game that they had won at full time, but which you resurrected because of foul play by blue)

if red are going to play the PK then yes give it. Until the conversion is taken the game is still going, so if blue commit foul play they should be sanctioned with PK -- and cards if appropriate

 

[DocY]

well, if red are going to kick the PK to touch to end the game I don't see the benefit of bringing 30 players back to the half way line to do that (and what if they missed touch, blue scored and red lost a game that they had won at full time, but which you revived because of foul play by blue)

if red are going to play the PK then yes give it. Until the conversion is taken the game is still going, so if blue commit foul play they should be sanctioned with PK -- and cards if appropriate

Yes, I realised what you were getting at. I didn't think there was a consensus in the recent thread about the unwanted final penalty and wanted to avoid this thread getting hijacked

In the case in question, 5.7 (e) seems pretty clear to me.

 

[didds]

I'd say up until you blow for full time, then the game is "on".

there is a confusion indeed about "where the game would be restarted" because at the instant of the try being awarded there wouldn't actually be a restart anyway as pointed out. I think this is where the mantra of "manage it" comes in.

I am not swayed by the "red miss kick to touch and blue score thing" just because it is 80+ minutes. That is equally true of a PK in the first minute. them's the breaks - make sure it goes to touch if its that important, full stop.

didds

 

[crossref]

another dimension -- what is the foul play and when did it happen? Does that make a difference ?

scenario 1 -- red score a last ditch try and with the try scorer prone on the ground blue defender drops both knees on him, cracking a rib -- that seems like an easy decision to restart with PK. I don't think anyone would expect anything else.

scenario 2 -- red are six points down and score a last ditch try, blue start to gather under the posts while a bunch of red players celebrate and gloat around the dead ball line -- then as they walk through the blue players all still gloating something is said and a frustrated blue player throws a punch.

there are now 82 mins on the clock, red take the conversion but MISS .

So with 83 mins on the clock, you restart with a PK to red, and red duly kick three points and win the game. I guess it's technically correct but seems like a big call.

 

[crossref]

I am not swayed by the "red miss kick to touch and blue score thing" just because it is 80+ minutes. That is equally true of a PK in the first minute. them's the breaks - make sure it goes to touch if its that important, full stop.

didds

it just means that blue foul play is to blue's advantage - by committing foul play they force red to take a kick and blue gain one more (admittedly very slim) chance. This might be especially the case at young levels where it's not at all impossible to miss touch from the centre point

 

[Thunderhorse1986]

another dimension -- what is the foul play and when did it happen? Does that make a difference ?

scenario 1 -- red score a last ditch try and with the try scorer prone on the ground blue defender drops both knees on him, cracking a rib -- that seems like an easy decision to restart with PK. I don't think anyone would expect anything else.

scenario 2 -- red are six points down and score a last ditch try, blue start to gather under the posts while a bunch of red players celebrate and gloat around the dead ball line -- then as they walk through the blue players all still gloating something is said and a frustrated blue player throws a punch.

there are now 82 mins on the clock, red take the conversion but MISS .

So with 83 mins on the clock, you restart with a PK to red, and red duly kick three points and win the game. I guess it's technically correct but seems like a big call.

That's why we're paid the big bucks...making the big calls if needed. If a player threw a punch then he can expect a PK, a carding regardless of the game time etc in my view. No place for it. I'd also have a word (and possibly a card) if I felt the "gloating" was excessive and clearly meant to wind up the opposition. But the PK would be against the punch and retaliation. I think 5.7(e) as quoted earlier is fairly clear that you should award the PK.

 

[didds]

it just means that blue foul play is to blue's advantage - by committing foul play they force red to take a kick and blue gain one more (admittedly very slim) chance. This might be especially the case at young levels where it's not at all impossible to miss touch from the centre point

that's understood CR and reasonable in itself. I just don;t think a ref can get into these second guessing scneraios... if only because another week the accusation for blowing time off instead of a PK is "we wanted the bonus point/ could have at least tried to tap and score" etc You can't please all the people all the time.

They could tap and give the ball to their fastest runner who could tun towards his own deadball line to kill the ball, with a 10m/7m head start on the oppo?


didds

 

[DocY]

They could tap and give the ball to their fastest runner who could tun towards his own deadball line to kill the ball, with a 10m/7m head start on the oppo?

didds

And who then pulls a hamstring I can see it being a bit of a catch 22, but I'd ask the captain what he wants.

 

[crossref]

They could tap and give the ball to their fastest runner who could tun towards his own deadball line to kill the ball, with a 10m/7m head start on the oppo?


didds

:biggrin: if I thought they were going to do that, I'd definitely give the PK! That would worth seeing.

 

[Rich_NL]

If you can't manage to kill the ball from a penalty on the halfway, and the game's that tight... the opposition aren't going to pull off any miracles either.

 

[crossref]

I still struggle with the idea of prolonging a game by awarding a PK to a team who don't want it (let's say the captain tells you unequivocally he doesn't want it). Blue offend .... so you punish Red ?

In those very specific circs, think it's more pragmatic to just end the game.

 

[OB..]

[laws]5.7 Other time regulations
(e) .... If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.[/laws]
Pragmatically this can only apply before the referee blows for full time. Since you wait until after the conversion is taken (or declined), the problem can only arise if an offence takes place after the conversion but before you whistle the game dead. That is usually a fairly small time frame.

 

[crossref]

[laws]5.7 Other time regulations
(e) .... If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.[/laws]
Pragmatically this can only apply before the referee blows for full time. Since you wait until after the conversion is taken (or declined), the problem can only arise if an offence takes place after the conversion but before you whistle the game dead. That is usually a fairly small time frame.

well, no, because if time has already expired when the try is scored, then the game is not going to restart.

... unless of course there is some foul play, as discussed, which effectively resurrects the game.

 

[OB..]

well, no, because if time has already expired when the try is scored, then the game is not going to restart.

5.7 (e) says a penalty can be awarded after time has expired. [laws]If time expires and a [...] penalty kick is THEN awarded ...[/laws] "Then" means after time (ie time on the clock) has expired . I am suggesting there is a limit on how long after, and that limit is when the referee blows for no side.

 

[Staffs_Ref]

Surely this is an ideal case for our old friends "Materiality" and "Contextuality". If there is a potential meaningful gain for Red by awarding the PK for foul play by Blue, then award it. If not, then call the game over following the conversion attempt.