Penalty query

[Cymro]

At last night's society meeting a colleague was discussing the scenario below:

last 5mins of the game. Penalty awarded to blue 15M out from red line but not in front of the posts. Ref says "wait" and goes to deal with an injury. When he returns blue 9 has the kicking tee in hand and asks "have I nominated posts" ref says "no not yet". So with tee in hand blue 9 taps and goes and scores a try which would ultimately win the game. red were back 10.

Discuss

then I'll tell you what he did.

 

[KML1]

Law 24 b - Penalties

"The intention to kick is signalled by the arrival of the kicking tee
or sand"

I'd then penalise the bugger for cheating!! :biggrin:

 

[Dickie E]

I used to play with a chap (who was our kicker) who used to keep his (flexible) tee down the front of his shorts. Saved a lot of time.

 

[ex-lucy]

blow.
"do it again"
warning as to future conduct .. gamesmanship....

 

[PaulDG]

blow.
"do it again"
warning as to future conduct .. gamesmanship....

Difficult though as the ref has already put himself in a corner by saying the FH hadn't nominated goal.

 

[Pablo]

I can't really understand why the ref would reply "No" when the 9 has the tee in his hands. My response would have been "Yes, by bringing the tee on. I'll signal it and start your minute when I call time on." This sort of problem cannot then arise.

If he then tapped and went, it ought to be a scrum turnover for an incorrectly taken penalty (see end of 21.4), though if the defending side had not been back 10m, then you could make a case for penalising the kicker under 21.9 for a "contrived infringement". Depends on the level of game and the circumstances.

 

[Deeps]

Difficult though as the ref has already put himself in a corner by saying the FH hadn't nominated goal.

I agree, difficult to dig oneself out I should imagine.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Ref made the error by saying what he said. If tee in his hand = nominated at goal by default.

If it was my mistake, I would have blown and brought him back saying "let me finish please - time is not on, no mark made as yet, and you have the tee in your hand, so now you have nominated posts".

 

[OB..]

The referee blundered in saying "No, not yet." That being so, he would have allowed the try without further thought.

However Cymro says "I'll tell you what he did", which implies he realised his error after the tap. Can he change his mind? The Law used to say not, but all it says now is:
Law 16.A.6 The referee may alter a decision when a touch judge has raised the flag to signal touch or an act of foul play.

You might infer he cannot change his mind otherwise, but it does not say so, and the inference is not a necessary one.

In Equity, he should call the player back, admit his error, and make him kick at goal.

 

[ex-lucy]

ref makes a mistake, cant change mind?
sounds like a good thread to start ...

i did so on Sat

 

[Dixie]

Player is in possession of an illegal article of equipment, to whit the Tee. Call him back, and either be lenient and decline to PK him, permitting the kick - or else PK his sorry smart ass (not my preferred option). One of those where a smile and a knowing nod to the cleverness of the idea may go down better than acting like a cuckolded magistrate faced with his nemesis in court.

 

[Emmet Murphy]

I can't remember if I mentioned this before but several weeks ago in a telelvised game, Dave Pearson awarded a PK and saw that the tee was being brought on - noone said anything to him but when he saw the tee he immediately said something to the effect of "the tee is on, you're kicking at goal" and pointed to the posts as he said it.

 

[TheBFG]

so come on then..................what'd he do :chin: :wait: :=

 

[Cymro]

unfortunately the build up is more exciting than the outcome
he didn't realise his error until the society meeting when a senior colleague, who had been asked by the loosing captain (who'd obviously had some post-match discussion with someone who knew the laws, cos he said nowt at the time), what his interpretation was, asked him to explain his reasoning.
Much discussion ensued along the lines of what has been posted here, ultimately however Law 21.4(b) is fairly clear, and I think lessons were learned :swet:

 

[SONA]

Ref specifically stated to the player "no not yet". To me that means play has not restarted. Not, no you can't kick for posts. Why didn't he just bring him back and make him restart when told?