Penalty Try vs Advantage

[crossref]

So the scenario we might want to focus on is foul play by the defending team occurs in the act of a try being scored, 10-15m out from the posts [ie the conversion is eminently kickable, but also very missable]. You should give the 7-pt PT. But really even under the old Laws you should have given them the easy-kick PT.

 

[Pegleg]

My understanding is that teams would rather score a "real" try than get given a PT. Partly because real tries are awarded to a specific player whereas PTs ..... aren't.

I'm not sure that is relevant. In fact I was marked down by an assessor for awarding a try where a PT was the "correct" option. The kick was easy (and made). I'll not do it again (well not when an assessor is present).

Perhaps the solution is to "award" the PT to the player.

 

[Pegleg]

So the scenario we might want to focus on is foul play by the defending team occurs in the act of a try being scored, 10-15m out from the posts [ie the conversion is eminently kickable, but also very missable]. You should give the 7-pt PT. But really even under the old Laws you should have given them the easy-kick PT.

Indeed we should have. However, taking Taff's point about "awarding the try to a player" I , and I'm sure others have made the "mistake" of saying "TRY". Of course and the 2 "extras" are "in the bag" now we need to be more careful that we get this one right.

 

[crossref]

So it you are near the TL and are taken out but you manage to ground the ball the "beam him up" principle applies and IF you had had a clear run behin the post the PT should be awarded.

Q: should we pay attention to what the try scorer was trying to do when the foul play happened? -- ie was he trying to score in the corner (diving) so got exactly what he wanted .. or was he on his feet, and clearly intending to curve round under the posts, and was denied that opportunity. Or is that immaterial for the PT decision ?

(NB it's certainly immaterial for the YC decision)

 

[Pegleg]

I think that's true.
but at the same time teams also prefer seven points to five.
and if they are ten points down with three mins to go, they'll also like to save the time to take the conversion.

A very good point!

 

[Pegleg]

Q: should we pay attention to what the try scorer was trying to do when the foul play happened? -- ie was he trying to score in the corner (diving) so got exactly what he wanted .. or was he on his feet, and clearly intending to curve round under the posts, and was denied that opportunity. Or is that immaterial for the PT decision ?

(NB it's certainly immaterial for the YC decision)

If he was diving then it is not probable that he'd have scored in a better position. If he was on his feet looking for his "target" grounding spot. it;s a bit clearer. However, if any foul play by a defender in the act of a try scoring oppertuninty that EITHER prevented a try or where a try is scored results in a PT It might stop player dropping on the try scorer as well. Thus preventing a flashpoint.

 

[Taff]

I'm not sure that is relevant. In fact I was marked down by an assessor for awarding a try where a PT was the "correct" option. The kick was easy (and made). I'll not do it again (well not when an assessor is present). Perhaps the solution is to "award" the PT to the player.

TBH I've never understood why it isn't awarded to a player. :chin:

 

[Dan_A]

TBH I've never understood why it isn't awarded to a player. :chin:

Red pushover try from a scrum prevented by deliberately collapse by Blue. Penalty try awarded. Which player gets the try?

 

[didds]

Red pushover try from a scrum prevented by deliberately collapse by Blue. Penalty try awarded. Which player gets the try?

Easy - me!

didds

 

[Flish]

Red pushover try from a scrum prevented by deliberately collapse by Blue. Penalty try awarded. Which player gets the try?

Half the time I wonder how they decide who those trys are awarded to at the best of times anyway, let alone a PT, why not guess then too!

 

[Pegleg]

Red pushover try from a scrum prevented by deliberately collapse by Blue. Penalty try awarded. Which player gets the try?

The captain if he's a forward! Seriously at times it will not be possible but often it would be reasonable to say.

 

[leaguerefaus]

Red pushover try from a scrum prevented by deliberately collapse by Blue. Penalty try awarded. Which player gets the try?

My understanding is that penalty tries are not credited to anyone, even if it is obvious who was prevented from scoring.

 

[Pegleg]

My understanding is that penalty tries are not credited to anyone, even if it is obvious who was prevented from scoring.

Indeed thie discussion is wh oshould get awarded it IF they were awarded to a player.

 

[Dickie E]

Indeed thie discussion is wh oshould get awarded it IF they were awarded to a player.

In RL I think they award to a player

 

[irishref]

In RU penalty tries are awarded to the 24th player, Mr or Mrs Penalty Try.

 

[Butters]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]I have seen the comments from Crossref and Pegleg earlier in this post but having read all the comments I still don’t know what I am allowed to do under current Law. [/FONT]
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?20520-Penalty-Try-vs-Advantage/page2&highlight=penalty+try

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Situation is this. Cup Game, last play, Red losing 20-14.[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Red 11 chips over blue 14 and ball bounces towards touch line and in goal area. The ball is still in play though. Nobody else in the frame. Blue 14 tackles Red 11 late preventing what is likely to be a try in the corner. Calling and playing advantage Red 11 gets up before blue 14 and runs to tap the ball down in the corner.[/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Red Kicker misses conversion, times up, Blue wins the game.[/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Can we give a P Try, even after a legitimate try has been scored?[/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Do we offer Red captain the option – Try or Penalty Try?[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Does the current score and time on clock affect our decision?[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Crossref says, So the scenario we might want to focus on is “foul play by the defending team occurs in the act of a try being scored.” But I can’t see the answer…

In my game, it wasn't the last play and I didn't have to make the decision as the ball went dead before the winger got to it but it got me thinking if he had grounded it and I hadn't blown for a P Try, could I have 'upgraded' my decision...[/FONT]

 

[crossref]

Good question

Law 8.3 is the answer

If Red had not been illegally tackled would he have been able to pick up the ball and score under the posts ?

It's complicated :
- if you apply the 'beam him up' principle and remove blue 14 completely, the answer is this case is yes , so should be a PT
- but the 'beam him up' principle seems to have been deprecated, now refs seem to imagine what would have happened if Blue had stayed legal --- which is that the try would have been scored ... in the corner. So no PT.


If you are going to award a PT - Its best if you blow immediately, before red score anyway, although some times it might happen so quickly you don't get time. In this case think quick blow slow , take a second , don't award the try but instead award the PT.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

This is interesting. A change to the PT law (the automatic 7) changes the value of the try being scored anyway. At my level the kickwrs are a mixed bunch and with some sides (especially women's rugby) a kick infront of the posts are not a given.

So Do we "bend" the laws a bit? I'm guessing we should not. But.....

One to think about!

 

[Phil E]

- but the 'beam him up' principle seems to have been deprecated, now refs seem to imagine what would have happened if Blue had stayed legal --- .

Really?

I have seen one ref on TV give that different interpretation....on one occasion only.
Every ref I know and in my society is still using the "take the offender out of the play" approach.

I haven't been instructed to do otherwise.

 

[crossref]

Really?

I have seen one ref on TV give that different interpretation....on one occasion only.
Every ref I know and in my society is still using the "take the offender out of the play" approach.

I haven't been instructed to do otherwise.

my understanding is that elite refs have been instructed otherwise...

but yes I should have been clearer

if the guidance you have from your society/union is 'beam him up' then it's a PT
if the guidance you have from your society/union is 'imagine he stayed legal' then it isn't a PT