PK directly into touch-in-goal after time is up.

anbocmorrua

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2017
Messages
6
Post Likes
0
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Recently, in an junior game, I awarded Green a penalty a minute before the end of the game. Green chose to kick for the corner but the ball went directly into touch-in-goal. We restarted with a 22 drop out for Blue.

I am now wondering what I should have done if the penalty had been awarded after time was up. Would that have been the end of the game or would Blue be entitled to a 22 drop out (or line out?)
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


Referees in England
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
7,665
Post Likes
905
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
TiG is touch so the game must restart (with a scrum or 22 DO option) is my view.
 

Mipper


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 15, 2021
Messages
155
Post Likes
73
Current Referee grade:
Level 10
That is a good question. I would go with ‘play on’ from the 22/scrum, and with absolute certainty.

Although here, between ‘friends’ I am absolutely not certain at all!
 

chbg


Referees in England
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
1,353
Solutions
1
Post Likes
337
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Surely Law 5.7c would have to state "touch or touch-in-go" for the game not to end. I would apply the same decision as if the PK had gone across the Dead Ball line.
 

Marc Wakeham


Referees in Wales
Joined
Jan 5, 2018
Messages
2,508
Post Likes
649
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Ball has to come back into pla,y before "no-side", after a PK so restart for me.
 

Stu10

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
420
Post Likes
195
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
Law 5.7.c
A half ends when the ball becomes dead after time has expired unless:
A penalty is kicked into touch without the ball first being tapped and without the ball touching another player.


Definitions:
Touch: The area alongside the field of play that includes the touchlines and beyond.
Touch-in-goal: The area alongside the in-goal area that includes the touch-in-goal lines and beyond.

Touch and touch-in-goal are listed separately in the definitions. Reading 5.7.c verbatim, kicking the ball to go touch-in-goal or over the dead-ball line does not prevent a half ending, the ball must be kicked into touch.
 

Marc Wakeham


Referees in Wales
Joined
Jan 5, 2018
Messages
2,508
Post Likes
649
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
The reason that 5.7C was written was to prevent sides kicking the ball dead. Similarly the ball has to come back into play at a scrum or lineout if "after time", that is they have to be "completed" . It is illogical not to apply the same reasoning to a ball going directly into touch in goal.
 
Last edited:

chbg


Referees in England
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
1,353
Solutions
1
Post Likes
337
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
The reason that 5.7C was written was to prevent sides kicking the ball dead. Similarly the ball has to come back into play at a scrum or lineout if "after time", that is they have t obe "completed" . It is illogical not to apply the same reasoning to a ball going directly into touch in goal.
NO - surely the aim of 5.7C was to enable a team to get the full benefit of a PK infringement, if they wished to. Otherwise, why let them tap the ball and then kick it out??? Under your reasoning, a PK at goal after time is up that missed would result in a 22 DO!!

A scrum/lineout is 'competition for the ball'. A FK/PK is precisely not that.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
20,403
Post Likes
2,500
The reason that 5.7C was written was to prevent sides kicking the ball dead. Similarly the ball has to come back into play at a scrum or lineout if "after time", that is they have t obe "completed" . It is illogical not to apply the same reasoning to a ball going directly into touch in goal.
what if they tap it, and then kick it out?
 

Phil E


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
15,672
Post Likes
1,936
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
If the PK is taken after time and goes straight out (on the full) that would be game over for me, regardless of whether it was touch or TIG.
 

Volun-selected


Referees in America
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
256
Post Likes
101
Location
United States
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
I’ve always thought an PK has either got to stay in the playing area, or (see above) kicked into touch - but not TiG or dead ball line. If they kick for touch - then it has to be touch. If TiG or Dead ball then the penalty has been wasted.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
20,403
Post Likes
2,500
If the PK is taken after time and goes straight out (on the full) that would be game over for me, regardless of whether it was touch or TIG.
  1. half ends when the ball becomes dead after time has expired unless:
    1. A scrum, lineout or restart kick following a try or touchdown, awarded before time expired, has not been completed and the ball has not returned to open play. This includes when the scrum, lineout or restart kick is taken incorrectly.
    2. The referee awards a free-kick or penalty.
    3. A penalty is kicked into touch without the ball first being tapped and without the ball touching another player.
    4. A try has been scored, in which case the referee allows time for the conversion to be taken.
no 'directly' any more
 

Stu10

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
420
Post Likes
195
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
I agree with @chbg , law 5.7.c enables the team awarded a penalty to gain the maximum benefit from that penalty by allowing them to kick for territory and be allowed the subsequent lineout independent of the clock. If a penalty is kicked directly into touch, the attacking team retains possession (ie they throw in at the lineout).

However, if they kick the penalty touch-in-goal or over the dead-ball line then the attacking team loses possession (scrum or 22 drop to the other side).

Therefore is makes sense to me that touch is treated differently to touch-in-goal or dead in-goal.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
20,403
Post Likes
2,500
I agree with @chbg , law 5.7.c enables the team awarded a penalty to gain the maximum benefit from that penalty by allowing them to kick for territory and be allowed the subsequent lineout independent of the clock. If a penalty is kicked directly into touch, the attacking team retains possession (ie they throw in at the lineout).

However, if they kick the penalty touch-in-goal or over the dead-ball line then the attacking team loses possession (scrum or 22 drop to the other side).

Therefore is makes sense to me that touch is treated differently to touch-in-goal or dead in-goal.
need to remove the 'directly' it doesn't matter if it bounces.
 

Marc Wakeham


Referees in Wales
Joined
Jan 5, 2018
Messages
2,508
Post Likes
649
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
what if they tap it, and then kick it out?
Then it becomes a kick in open play and the game ends. That's why referees tell players if you want to end the game tap first.
 

Stu10

Rugby Club Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
420
Post Likes
195
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
need to remove the 'directly' it doesn't matter if it bounces.
Correct... when I said "directly" I meant without the ball being played (ie tapped first or touched by another player), but my choice of words was not the best. The wording in the law is better, "kicked into touch without the ball first being tapped and without the ball touching another player."
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
20,403
Post Likes
2,500
Eng v SA .. exactly This happened as well !

End of game
 

chbg


Referees in England
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
1,353
Solutions
1
Post Likes
337
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Obviously the referee (and AR) was correct. And the commentators knew no different (so perhaps it was wrong!)
 
Top