[Law] Player goes to ground. Can you award a try ?

CrouchTPEngage


Referees in England
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
498
Post Likes
58
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
Scenario :
Red are 10 metres from Blue's goal line. The ball has spilled side-ways from a ruck. Multiple players see that the ball is clearly out of the ruck and is on the ground. They all move towards the ball. Red 10 is first there. He anticipates that there are several defenders closing onto the ball and he so he goes to groudn first and slides along the ground towards the ball. He contacts the ball with his shin and it thus goes forward into the Blue's in goal.
Red 12 ( who was never in front of Red 10 ) now chases onto the kicked ball and grounds it in-goal.

What's the decision ?
 

Rich_NL

Rugby Expert
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
1,622
Post Likes
499
PK against. You can't go to ground to play the ball and kick it (13.1)
 

Arabcheif

Player or Coach
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
680
Post Likes
74
Current Referee grade:
Level 1
I would say it would depend in the intent, if it's accidentally hit off the shin, then by the definitions this isn't a kick as intent is mentioned in the definitons. So if it's intentional, then yeah PK if not 22m DO.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,816
Post Likes
3,154
I agree with AC , bouncing off a shin is not an illegal kick
 

CrouchTPEngage


Referees in England
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
498
Post Likes
58
Current Referee grade:
Level 8
I agree with AC , bouncing off a shin is not an illegal kick

Interesting. Thanks. It was material, in that his team scored a try from his "kicking" on the ground. Does that alter anything?
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,145
Post Likes
1,837
PK against. You can't go to ground to play the ball and kick it (13.1)

[LAWS]Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.[/LAWS]


the follow up question would be what if the the ball ricochet's off his knee/thigh, chest (no hands near it) etc etc ie its not a kick

didds
 
Last edited:

collybs


Referees in England
Joined
Feb 4, 2007
Messages
186
Post Likes
14
I agree with AC , bouncing off a shin is not an illegal kick
He anticipates that there are several defenders closing onto the ball and he so he goes to groudn first and slides along the ground towards the ball. He contacts the ball with his shin and it thus goes forward into the Blue's in goal.
But as he slid in towards the ball (which presumably was not moving about) I would say he played the ball rather than the ball bouncing off him.
 

DocY


Referees in England
Joined
Dec 10, 2015
Messages
1,809
Post Likes
421
I think I'd have to see it.
As others have said, kicking the ball on the ground is an offence, but I think it could have also been a knock on: if the player was trying to bring the ball under control (which would make him in possession) and it went forward.
Or it could have just been a cock up.

I'd have probably given the try as I doubt I'd have seen a C&O infringement.
 

Decorily

Coach/Referee
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
1,612
Post Likes
445
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
I'd have probably given the try as I doubt I'd have seen a C&O infringement.

Clear and Obvious....there's an expression that isn't used enough on this forum!
 

Rich_NL

Rugby Expert
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
1,622
Post Likes
499
As described (he contacts the ball with his shin), I took it to be C&O intentional. Why on earth else do you slide in legs-first to get to the ball?

But let's take it as accidental:

He's going to ground and attempting to gain control of the ball, then that counts as possession.

He loses possession and the ball goes forward.

Scrum blue.
 

thepercy


Referees in America
Joined
Sep 21, 2013
Messages
923
Post Likes
147
Current Referee grade:
Level 1
But as he slid in towards the ball (which presumably was not moving about) I would say he played the ball rather than the ball bouncing off him.

Players that go to ground to gather the ball, are entitled to play the ball, and as defined a kick requires intention. So if a player goes to ground in an attempt to gather the ball but messes it up and the ball bounces off their shin, or any other body part, except hand or arms, even forward, then it is play on and then a try. If the player goes to ground to gather the ball, and intentionally kicks it, like a slide tackle in soccer, then it is a PK against. I do not think is a knock on, the player did not have possession and lose it forward, nor did the player hit the ball forward with hand(s) or arm(s).
 
Last edited:

Rich_NL

Rugby Expert
Joined
Apr 13, 2015
Messages
1,622
Post Likes
499
What definition of possession are you using?
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,816
Post Likes
3,154
[LAWS].Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it
under control [/LAWS]
 

menace


Referees in Australia
Joined
Nov 20, 2009
Messages
3,657
Post Likes
633
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
On the presumption the player is going to ground to gather the ball and it happens to hit off his shin ...then I'm awarding a try for this scenario.
It may not look right, it may even look ugly...but can't see any infringement here.
 

chbg


Referees in England
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
1,490
Solutions
1
Post Likes
450
Current Referee grade:
Level 7
Another one when you just have to sell your decision as you see it at the time. Try, unless there is a C&O offence. But if you think that it was a kick, then that's you explanation for penalising.
 

Zebra1922


Referees in Scotland
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
718
Post Likes
234
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Another one when you just have to sell your decision as you see it at the time. Try, unless there is a C&O offence. But if you think that it was a kick, then that's you explanation for penalising.

Good answer, the bit about selling it is an underrated part of refereeing. Explain clearly why you have given your decision and it is difficult for anyone to argue with you (well, more difficult anyway!). Clear, concise explanations can take a lot of frustration out of the game and should be used more frequently by referees as a management tool.
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,145
Post Likes
1,837
I think I'd have to see it.
As others have said, kicking the ball on the ground is an offence, but I think it could have also been a knock on: if the player was trying to bring the ball under control (which would make him in possession) and it went forward. .

but only of the ball hit an arm/hand though surely? you cant have a knock on off only the shin surely? Otherwise eg fly hacking or kicking on in a chase would be a knock on ?

didds
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,145
Post Likes
1,837
As described (he contacts the ball with his shin), I took it to be C&O intentional. Why on earth else do you slide in legs-first to get to the ball?

But let's take it as accidental:

He's going to ground and attempting to gain control of the ball, then that counts as possession.

He loses possession and the ball goes forward.

Scrum blue.

without the ball touching his arms or hands? really? That's the second such claim Ive seen in this thread - and now I'm now wondering if there is some nuance on the KO laws that Ive missed entirely after all these years (or since the rewrite! :)

didds
 
Top