[Law] Player goes to ground. Can you award a try ?

[CrouchTPEngage]

Scenario :
Red are 10 metres from Blue's goal line. The ball has spilled side-ways from a ruck. Multiple players see that the ball is clearly out of the ruck and is on the ground. They all move towards the ball. Red 10 is first there. He anticipates that there are several defenders closing onto the ball and he so he goes to groudn first and slides along the ground towards the ball. He contacts the ball with his shin and it thus goes forward into the Blue's in goal.
Red 12 ( who was never in front of Red 10 ) now chases onto the kicked ball and grounds it in-goal.

What's the decision ?

 

[Rich_NL]

PK against. You can't go to ground to play the ball and kick it (13.1)

 

[Arabcheif]

I would say it would depend in the intent, if it's accidentally hit off the shin, then by the definitions this isn't a kick as intent is mentioned in the definitons. So if it's intentional, then yeah PK if not 22m DO.

 

[crossref]

I agree with AC , bouncing off a shin is not an illegal kick

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

I agree with AC , bouncing off a shin is not an illegal kick

Interesting. Thanks. It was material, in that his team scored a try from his "kicking" on the ground. Does that alter anything?

 

[didds]

PK against. You can't go to ground to play the ball and kick it (13.1)

[LAWS]Kick: An act made by intentionally hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee. A kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.[/LAWS]


the follow up question would be what if the the ball ricochet's off his knee/thigh, chest (no hands near it) etc etc ie its not a kick

didds

 

[crossref]

Interesting. Thanks. It was material, in that his team scored a try from his "kicking" on the ground. Does that alter anything?

It shouldn't, should it ?

 

[collybs]

I agree with AC , bouncing off a shin is not an illegal kick

He anticipates that there are several defenders closing onto the ball and he so he goes to groudn first and slides along the ground towards the ball. He contacts the ball with his shin and it thus goes forward into the Blue's in goal.

But as he slid in towards the ball (which presumably was not moving about) I would say he played the ball rather than the ball bouncing off him.

 

[DocY]

I think I'd have to see it.
As others have said, kicking the ball on the ground is an offence, but I think it could have also been a knock on: if the player was trying to bring the ball under control (which would make him in possession) and it went forward.
Or it could have just been a cock up.

I'd have probably given the try as I doubt I'd have seen a C&O infringement.

 

[Decorily]

I'd have probably given the try as I doubt I'd have seen a C&O infringement.

Clear and Obvious....there's an expression that isn't used enough on this forum!

 

[Rich_NL]

As described (he contacts the ball with his shin), I took it to be C&O intentional. Why on earth else do you slide in legs-first to get to the ball?

But let's take it as accidental:

He's going to ground and attempting to gain control of the ball, then that counts as possession.

He loses possession and the ball goes forward.

Scrum blue.

 

[thepercy]

But as he slid in towards the ball (which presumably was not moving about) I would say he played the ball rather than the ball bouncing off him.

Players that go to ground to gather the ball, are entitled to play the ball, and as defined a kick requires intention. So if a player goes to ground in an attempt to gather the ball but messes it up and the ball bounces off their shin, or any other body part, except hand or arms, even forward, then it is play on and then a try. If the player goes to ground to gather the ball, and intentionally kicks it, like a slide tackle in soccer, then it is a PK against. I do not think is a knock on, the player did not have possession and lose it forward, nor did the player hit the ball forward with hand(s) or arm(s).

 

[Rich_NL]

What definition of possession are you using?

 

[crossref]

[LAWS].Possession: An individual or team in control of the ball or who are attempting to bring it
under control [/LAWS]

 

[menace]

On the presumption the player is going to ground to gather the ball and it happens to hit off his shin ...then I'm awarding a try for this scenario.
It may not look right, it may even look ugly...but can't see any infringement here.

 

[chbg]

Another one when you just have to sell your decision as you see it at the time. Try, unless there is a C&O offence. But if you think that it was a kick, then that's you explanation for penalising.

 

[Zebra1922]

Another one when you just have to sell your decision as you see it at the time. Try, unless there is a C&O offence. But if you think that it was a kick, then that's you explanation for penalising.

Good answer, the bit about selling it is an underrated part of refereeing. Explain clearly why you have given your decision and it is difficult for anyone to argue with you (well, more difficult anyway!). Clear, concise explanations can take a lot of frustration out of the game and should be used more frequently by referees as a management tool.

 

[crossref]

But Sir, you are being legalistic !

 

[didds]

I think I'd have to see it.
As others have said, kicking the ball on the ground is an offence, but I think it could have also been a knock on: if the player was trying to bring the ball under control (which would make him in possession) and it went forward. .

but only of the ball hit an arm/hand though surely? you cant have a knock on off only the shin surely? Otherwise eg fly hacking or kicking on in a chase would be a knock on ?

didds

 

[didds]

As described (he contacts the ball with his shin), I took it to be C&O intentional. Why on earth else do you slide in legs-first to get to the ball?

But let's take it as accidental:

He's going to ground and attempting to gain control of the ball, then that counts as possession.

He loses possession and the ball goes forward.

Scrum blue.

without the ball touching his arms or hands? really? That's the second such claim Ive seen in this thread - and now I'm now wondering if there is some nuance on the KO laws that Ive missed entirely after all these years (or since the rewrite!

didds