Player in the air in-goal (Sarries v Quins)

[Stu10]

🔴 LIVE REPLAY | Saracens v Harlequins | Round 21 Game of the Week | Gallagher Premiership Rugby

💫 Saracens v Harlequins 🃏Every week we'll replay the best Gallagher Premiership game of the weekend live and in full! This week it's a heavyweight London c...

www.youtube.com

View from 1h 28m point.

Cross kick from Care, taken by Marchant in the air within the in-goal area with Goode underneath him. Goode catches him in the air but can't hold Marchant up, who drops to the ground, try awarded. Smith misses the conversion.

What could Goode do here? Just let Marchant catch the ball and score without interference? Clarification 3 2022 states that a defender may tackle someone in the air when diving to score a try.

Luke Pearce was questioned if it should have been a penalty try for playing an opponent in the air... he replied that it would have been if he had not grounded it. However, Law 8.3 says a penalty try may be awarded if the try might have been scored in a more advantageous position. Might Marchant have otherwise not grounded the ball and got under the posts?

Law 8.3
A penalty try is awarded between the goal posts if foul play by the opposing team prevents a probable try from being scored, or scored in a more advantageous position. A player guilty of this must be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off. No conversion is attempted.

Even with the try being scored, should Goode have been penalised? YC for Goode? Restart with a penalty on half-way?

A few things to unpack here!

 

[shebeen]

🔴 LIVE REPLAY | Saracens v Harlequins | Round 21 Game of the Week | Gallagher Premiership Rugby

💫 Saracens v Harlequins 🃏Every week we'll replay the best Gallagher Premiership game of the weekend live and in full! This week it's a heavyweight London c...

www.youtube.com

View from 1h 28m point.

Cross kick from Care, taken by Marchant in the air within the in-goal area with Goode underneath him. Goode catches him in the air but can't hold Marchant up, who drops to the ground, try awarded. Smith misses the conversion.

What could Goode do here? Just let Marchant catch the ball without interference? Clarification 3 2022 states that a defender may tackler someone in the air when diving to score a try.

Luke Pearce was questioned if it should have been a penalty try... he replied that it would have been if he had not grounded it. However, Law 8.3 says a penalty try may be awarded if the try might have been scored in a more advantageous position. Might Marchant have otherwise not grounded the ball and got under the posts?

Law 8.3
A penalty try is awarded between the goal posts if foul play by the opposing team prevents a probable try from being scored, or scored in a more advantageous position. A player guilty of this must be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off. No conversion is attempted.

Even with the try being scored, should Goode have been penalised? YC for Goode? Restart with a penalty on half-way?

A few things to unpack here!

🔴 LIVE REPLAY | Saracens v Harlequins | Round 21 Game of the Week | Gallagher Premiership Rugby

💫 Saracens v Harlequins 🃏Every week we'll replay the best Gallagher Premiership game of the weekend live and in full! This week it's a heavyweight London c...

www.youtube.com

View from 1h 28m point.

Cross kick from Care, taken by Marchant in the air within the in-goal area with Goode underneath him. Goode catches him in the air but can't hold Marchant up, who drops to the ground, try awarded. Smith misses the conversion.

What could Goode do here? Just let Marchant catch the ball without interference? Clarification 3 2022 states that a defender may tackler someone in the air when diving to score a try.

Luke Pearce was questioned if it should have been a penalty try... he replied that it would have been if he had not grounded it. However, Law 8.3 says a penalty try may be awarded if the try might have been scored in a more advantageous position. Might Marchant have otherwise not grounded the ball and got under the posts?

Law 8.3
A penalty try is awarded between the goal posts if foul play by the opposing team prevents a probable try from being scored, or scored in a more advantageous position. A player guilty of this must be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off. No conversion is attempted.

Even with the try being scored, should Goode have been penalised? YC for Goode? Restart with a penalty on half-way?

A few things to unpack here!

I don't see the issue. Tackle was fair and not dangerous, but only because it was a try scoring move.

LP probably would have got that wrong.

 

[BikingBud]

Ben Kay: "Would have been a tackle in the air and a penalty try otherwise"

Really poor comments again from a pundit. It was a tackle in the air, and there was scope to review and consider if it was penalty try. I would offer that the advantage was deemed to have accrued so rapidly that no review or other decision was deemed necessary by the officials.

However, a more advantageous position might have enabled conversion of the try. So I'm with @Stu10 here

I don't see the issue. Tackle was fair and not dangerous, but only because it was a try scoring move.

LP probably would have got that wrong.

Outcome bias!

Under the current laws, how is a tackle in the air fair when it is not legal? See 9.17 -

• A player must not tackle, charge, pull, push or grasp an opponent whose feet are off the ground.

Although I do consider that there is a possibility that Goode may have been able to catch were it not for Marchant jumping laterally into him. A current pet hate of mine as it absolves payers from duty of care.

 

[crossref]

LP said that in his view it was foul play. I agree. He should have got a YC for it
(Not a PT because Marchant did score)

 

[Phil E]

Everyone is saying he was tackled in the air?

A tackle can take place anywhere in the field of play.

In-Goal is not part of the Field of Play. Therefore it wasn't a tackle and he can't be penalised for making a tackle, in the air or otherwise.
You can go down the dangerous play route if you want, but you cant go down the tackle route.

 

[didds]

Im happy enough with a try and not a PT. though I wouldn't argue against the beam me up scotty consept which would see Goode removed from the equation and marchant then likely to score closer to the ;posts = PT.

How that cant be a YC purely because it ended in a score (but not a PT) is a bit daft.

Meanwhile as for "What could Goode do?". The answer is "his team shouldnt have let Marchant be in the position to score in the first place".

 

[Stu10]

To clarify, I'm not sure where I stand on this one. I have sympathy for Goode's situation... what defensive action can he take? Might this be covered by Clarification 2022-3, tackling a player in the air while diving to score a try?

 

[didds]

Everyone is saying he was tackled in the air?

A tackle can take place anywhere in the field of play.

In-Goal is not part of the Field of Play. Therefore it wasn't a tackle and he can't be penalised for making a tackle, in the air or otherwise.
You can go down the dangerous play route if you want, but you cant go down the tackle route.

He wasnt in-goal. the impact with Marchant in the air was field side of the try line. IMO. Even allowing for parallax, that - to me -looks decidedly still NOT in-goal. Goode's feet are in the field of play and Marchant is upfield of him.

Others MMV I guess.

 

[Stu10]

Everyone is saying he was tackled in the air?

A tackle can take place anywhere in the field of play.

In-Goal is not part of the Field of Play. Therefore it wasn't a tackle and he can't be penalised for making a tackle, in the air or otherwise.
You can go down the dangerous play route if you want, but you cant go down the tackle route.

I actually said that Marchant was played in the air, but anyway...

Law 9.17
A player must not tackle, charge, pull, push or grasp an opponent whose feet are off the ground.

It cannot be considered as a tackle when in-goal, but it could be considered as a pull or grasp.

 

[didds]

even a split second later, Marchant is still landing in field though his chest may just in-goal

 

[crossref]

In-Goal is not part of the Field of Play. Therefore it wasn't a tackle and he can't be penalised for making a tackle, in the air or otherwise.
You can go down the dangerous play route if you want, but you cant go down the tackle route.

Spectacularly missing the point .

Most catching collisions in the air are not tackles .. they are two players leaping for the ball.

Was it dangerous play ? I say yes. LP said it was foul play
So what was the appropriate sanction?
I would say YC

 

[shebeen]

Ben Kay: "Would have been a tackle in the air and a penalty try otherwise"

Really poor comments again from a pundit. It was a tackle in the air, and there was scope to review and consider if it was penalty try. I would offer that the advantage was deemed to have accrued so rapidly that no review or other decision was deemed necessary by the officials.

However, a more advantageous position might have enabled conversion of the try. So I'm with @Stu10 here


Outcome bias!

Under the current laws, how is a tackle in the air fair when it is not legal? See 9.17 -

• A player must not tackle, charge, pull, push or grasp an opponent whose feet are off the ground.

Although I do consider that there is a possibility that Goode may have been able to catch were it not for Marchant jumping laterally into him. A current pet hate of mine as it absolves payers from duty of care.

Here's another tackle in the air then.

 

[menace]

What could Goode do here?

wait till his feet hit the ground then wrap him up (ball and all)?

Might Marchant have otherwise not grounded the ball and got under the posts?

Not IMO. Enough black players nearby rushing in. No PT.

Law 8.3
A penalty try is awarded between the goal posts if foul play by the opposing team prevents a probable try from being scored, or scored in a more advantageous position. A player guilty of this must be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off. No conversion is attempted.

Even with the try being scored, should Goode have been penalised? YC for Goode? Restart with a penalty on half-way?

A few things to unpack here!

So PK yes..but try scored so adv only.
IMO. Not dangerous landing (not.landed on side.or head). So not a YC for the grasp in the air.

PK restarts are for pk offences after the ball is dead (try scored). This happened before the try was scored...adv..adv over with try. No PK restart permissible.

 

[Dickie E]

Everyone is saying he was tackled in the air?

A tackle can take place anywhere in the field of play.

In-Goal is not part of the Field of Play. Therefore it wasn't a tackle and he can't be penalised for making a tackle, in the air or otherwise.
You can go down the dangerous play route if you want, but you cant go down the tackle route.

I'm not sure if you're serious or not. The definition of 'tackle' is just to point us towards when law 14 does or doesn't apply. The laws are littered with other uses of the word 'tackle' that have nothing to do with : "For a tackle to occur, the ball-carrier is held and brought to ground by one or more opponents."

 

[didds]

"Not dangerous landing (not.landed on side.or head). So not a YC for the grasp in the air."

fair enough. Thanks.

 

[Phil E]

Spectacularly missing the point .

There was no need for that first sentence, the rest of the post made your position clear.
Its statements like that, that make people not want to post on the forum.

 

[BikingBud]

wait till his feet hit the ground then wrap him up (ball and all)?

Not IMO. Enough black players nearby rushing in. No PT.




So PK yes..but try scored so adv only.
IMO. Not dangerous landing (not.landed on side.or head). So not a YC for the grasp in the air.

PK restarts are for pk offences after the ball is dead (try scored). This happened before the try was scored...adv..adv over with try. No PK restart permissible.

If Marchant catches unimpeded with the other 3 defenders all recovering from the 5 m line he has made it to the 15 m line at least, therefore "more advantageous".

In the same manner he was challenged in the air so a deliberate act of foul play - YC

You cannot change behaviour if everything is outcome biased, the risk of penalties must be real and applied consistently otherwise players will always gamble on getting a good outcome. Player decision processes. If I do this:

• I might be able to prevent the try. <5%
• The try might be scored and they get five points. >60%
• The try might be scored and they get five points and a successful conversion >20%
• I am likely to get penalised, sin binned and they get PT <5%
• Make any other possible outcome as you see fit ~10%

So the defender gambles away knowing that the most likely sanction is only that they get the try as scored as this was seen as advantageous, for whom?

We've been here before and discussed the lottery and quality of kickers but as can be seen here even with international 10s the kick is not assured, so a decision by the match officials restricts the full advantage and the score.

I just don't get this, there has been foul play, but we get deliberate denial of the full benefit of the law to the non-offending team, bizarre .

 

[Volun-selected]

What could Goode do here? Just let Marchant catch the ball and score without interference?

Throttle back slightly, let marchant land with the ball and then immediately bulldoze him into touch?

 

[Stu10]

wait till his feet hit the ground then wrap him up (ball and all)?

Throttle back slightly, let marchant land with the ball and then immediately bulldoze him into touch?

I suspect it might hurt a little, but I'm considering that Marchant was sufficiently over the try line that he could have dropped from the air and grounded the ball before putting feet down. Thinking this further you get to a scenario that if the attacking player catches a kick in-goal, there is absolutely nothing a defender can realistically do to prevent the try.

 

[didds]

I suspect it might hurt a little, but I'm considering that Marchant was sufficiently over the try line that he could have dropped from the air and grounded the ball before putting feet down. Thinking this further you get to a scenario that if the attacking player catches a kick in-goal, there is absolutely nothing a defender can realistically do to prevent the try.

pretty much!

lay prone beneath the falling player so that 9s)he falls on top of you with the ball between you and hug for dear life so the ball cannot be freed ?

( a lot of hope and maybes going on in that!)