Player red carded in an unsanctioned friendly 10s match at the field of a 15s tournament, is the player out for the day at the tournament?

[Marc Wakeham]

Consider the new player full of enthusiasm to be playing a first tournament and getting over excited, bit like a new puppy. They do something stupid (not dangerous or thuggish), they were not aware, they got red card perhaps as the best way to diffuse the situation. They sat out the rest of that game and were then advised by their team mates what they did and how stupid it was. They apologise to their own team, their opponents and the referee (from the friendly). They approach the rest of the tournament impeccably, learn lots more and get a whole load of enjoyment and understanding about the laws and the mutual respect. You know those elements of the Game we all love .

We now have a convert to the Game, an ambassador who will encourage others to participate. Team A is then able to fill the fixture in the tourney next time because one person says they all had a hoot and it was proper hard sport, well officiated, well organised and great way to spend a few hours and then have an awesome social.

Or we have a guy who likes to "put it about" and in the next game he breaks some poor sod's neck because of a "brain fart". How do you know which one he really is?

Let's bring him to the point of being an "ambassador" who understands the ethos and values of the game. Who uderstands that you need to control your brain so it does not "fart" and if it does you take the consequences of your actions.

 

[crossref]

So have a hissy about your own disappointment rather

What a strange post that was !

 

[jdeagro]

Consider the new player full of enthusiasm to be playing a first tournament and getting over excited, bit like a new puppy. They do something stupid (not dangerous or thuggish), they were not aware, they got red card perhaps as the best way to diffuse the situation. They sat out the rest of that game and were then advised by their team mates what they did and how stupid it was. They apologise to their own team, their opponents and the referee (from the friendly). They approach the rest of the tournament impeccably, learn lots more and get a whole load of enjoyment and understanding about the laws and the mutual respect. You know those elements of the Game we all love .

This is a fairly accurate depiction of what the actual situation was. The game was being played by mostly first or second time players. It was meant to be more of a friendly learning game. (As was Team B's goal at the tournament in general.)

The player in question received a yellow card for a high tackle (around the shoulders initially and dropped immediately). It was their first high tackle of the game. The reasoning for such a swift card was likely because the game was already high tackle heavy from everyone else, given the context of the game. The player was upset they screwed up and got carded, and started cursing to themselves - unfortunately in ear's view of the ref, who then immediately upgraded it to a red card.

Afterwards the player was admonished by his team and coach, and sincerely apologized to the ref, and ultimately the head ref when they appeared to provide their decision. The player was respectful otherwise, and continued the day without further incident.

Given the context of the game, one could argue about was the ref a little overzealous in a friendly 10s match filled with mostly brand new players? I think one's game management should adjust accordingly to the type and level of game they're refereeing. So I believe they were. And I think the head ref took all of these factors into consideration in their final decision, which makes sense to me, since we all have brains in our head, and obviously not everything is objectively clear cut. I think it was in the best interest of the player and the spirit of the sport (which do remember is something tangible in the law book).

But that subjectively changes the original question (as someone else already mentioned). So to be fair, regardless of *why* the red card was originally administered, I was interested in everyone's take on the situation. And I appreciate the worldly perspective here, I don't only need someone with formal USA Rugby experience to comment.

Also, for what it's worth, the level of play here is social mens clubs.

 

[jdeagro]

Except Discipline is Regulation 17, and not Law.

Oh interesting. Can you please provide a source to Regulation 17 please (I'm not familiar)?

And except for the fact that under USA R, tournament organizers MUST appoint someone to handle discipline prior to the tournament.

Interesting. Can that be a head ref from the batch of refs the society sent to partake in the tournament? I think most times, at this level (social men's clubs) this doesn't happen formally, at least not for social games like an off-season tournament, and the referees are just assumed to be in that position.

 

[crossref]

If we (our society) supply refs for a tournament, one of them will be in charge ... of the other refs. So deciding who refs each game, making sure everyone is on same page.

They are not responsible for administrating the tournament, that's the tournament organisers.


Every tournament I have been to, its clear that a RC player is out for the day. If the tournament organisers decided (somehow) that a particular RC wasn't justified and the player could come back, that would be a very interesting challenge for the refs as a group, and the in charge ref in particular. (At best its an expression of no confidence, at worst it's simply two fingers at the ref)

It's hypothetical, but if that happened, I wouldn't be surprised if the refs refused to continue

 

[Locke]

It’s a bit surprising to me that no one has suggested the idea that if a group of players get together to play an unsanctioned game for the fun of it, that any “cards” that are handed out are not real or enforceable in any way. It wasn’t an official game in any sense. How could official discipline arise from it?
What if this weekend 30 local guys think it sounds fun to get together and play some rugby and a local ref agrees to take part for the fun and the fitness with his friends? And then there’s a dangerous high tackle from some overzealous player and the ref holds up a red card. Is that player now reported to the disciplinary committee? The whole thing is unofficial. The OP situation doesn’t feel much different than that to me. The players said, “hey, let’s get some rugby in, even though the game is officially forfeit. Will you still ref it so that our game bears some resemblance to what the law book says Rugby should look like? Great. Give team B some players and let’s go!”. And now a “red card” has been issued, let’s say 100% deservedly. The game is essentially a pretend game and any cards that are issued are pretend cards and should have no bearing on official tournament games unless the action was so egregious that the player would be banned if he had done it in the parking lot when no games were going on at all.

That’s my two cents, which seem to be counter to the prevailing opinion here.

 

[crossref]

it wasn't really like that though was it?
the tournament organisers would have control over a set of pitches for a set amount of time, they are responsible for all rugby played on the pitches (team A and B would have asked the organisers' is it OK to use this pitch?).
The tournament schedule was A v B, at X O'clock, reffed by Joe Doe. A played B, at X'o'clock reffed by Joe Doe. When a player got sent off, everyone went diretly to the tournament organisers to ask what to do. It was, in many important senses part of the tournament, even if the rsult had been forfeitied

As to you example ..

What if this weekend 30 local guys think it sounds fun to get together and play some rugby and a local ref agrees to take part for the fun and the fitness with his friends?

I'd ask - where are you playing ? likely it's at a rugby club, so now you have an organiser and all RFU laws and regulations apply. If it's at the council park -- who is paying for it? If it's on a farmer's field somewhere an totally unofficial I wouldn't do it. I don't think I'd be covered by any insurance, and why would they want a ref anyway.

Whenever you ref a game you should understand: who organised the game and who has appointed you. If anything goes wrong (a RC, an accident, a fight, MOA, an unsafe pitch...) all this is going to be important.

 

[jdeagro]

It’s a bit surprising to me that no one has suggested the idea that if a group of players get together to play an unsanctioned game for the fun of it, that any “cards” that are handed out are not real or enforceable in any way. It wasn’t an official game in any sense. How could official discipline arise from it?
What if this weekend 30 local guys think it sounds fun to get together and play some rugby and a local ref agrees to take part for the fun and the fitness with his friends? And then there’s a dangerous high tackle from some overzealous player and the ref holds up a red card. Is that player now reported to the disciplinary committee? The whole thing is unofficial. The OP situation doesn’t feel much different than that to me. The players said, “hey, let’s get some rugby in, even though the game is officially forfeit. Will you still ref it so that our game bears some resemblance to what the law book says Rugby should look like? Great. Give team B some players and let’s go!”. And now a “red card” has been issued, let’s say 100% deservedly. The game is essentially a pretend game and any cards that are issued are pretend cards and should have no bearing on official tournament games unless the action was so egregious that the player would be banned if he had done it in the parking lot when no games were going on at all.

That’s my two cents, which seem to be counter to the prevailing opinion here.

I'm glad you said this, because that's kind of what my head has been wondering too. Especially in regards to how the ref society works in some of these other countries, where it sounds like they have to ask their society for permission to referee an unsanctioned / friendly match.

It's very surprising to me that for those referees, if 14 of their mates wanted to get together and play 7 on 7 and asked them to referee their pickup game of rugby, as someone who is knowledgeable of the laws because they happen to be a referee, but they aren't representing their referee society in an official capacity (because it's an unsanctioned match), that they'd have to ask for permission from their society to do so.

Obviously the match I presented in the original question was a little less casual than that, it being between two actual teams and not mates, and officiated by a neutral ref, but similar in spirit.

 

[smeagol]

It's very surprising to me that for those referees, if 14 of their mates wanted to get together and play 7 on 7 and asked them to referee their pickup game of rugby, as someone who is knowledgeable of the laws because they happen to be a referee, but they aren't representing their referee society in an official capacity (because it's an unsanctioned match), that they'd have to ask for permission from their society to do so.

Obviously the match I presented in the original question was a little less casual than that, it being between two actual teams and not mates, and officiated by a neutral ref, but similar in spirit.

The issue that is often brought up IME is if a player gets hurt in such a pickup game. The player cannot utilize the USA Rugby-affiliated insurance to cover the medical expenses, and the referee is exposed to personal liability.

Also, given the current shortage of referees, if an official assignment can't be covered because of this pickup game, then the optics are...not good.

 

[crossref]

It's very surprising to me that for those referees, if 14 of their mates wanted to get together and play 7 on 7 and asked them to referee their pickup game of rugby, as someone who is knowledgeable of the laws because they happen to be a referee, but they aren't representing their referee society in an official capacity (because it's an unsanctioned match), that they'd have to ask for permission from their society to do so.

if you referee a pick up game - in a public park for instance, then who is insuring you? who is insuring the players ?
if it's really a pick up game in a park no society would appoint you to it. The society insurance will cover games of rugby organised by clubs and schools, not pivk up games in parks.

of course you might do it anyway, and there's no law against it, but you wouldn't be doing it as an official society ref.

I think you are also getting confused about 'sanctioned' and friendlies.

every game a rugby club organises is sanctioned/allowed and everyhing comes uinder the governance of the RFU. It's kinda the defintion of a rugby club. They can arrange to play a friendly next week, and ask the society to send a ref, and we'll gladly do it.

Obviously the match I presented in the original question was a little less casual than that, it being between two actual teams and not mates, and officiated by a neutral ref, but similar in spirit.

indeed very different - see post 47.

 

[BikingBud]

Oh interesting. Can you please provide a source to Regulation 17 please (I'm not familiar)?


Interesting. Can that be a head ref from the batch of refs the society sent to partake in the tournament? I think most times, at this level (social men's clubs) this doesn't happen formally, at least not for social games like an off-season tournament, and the referees are just assumed to be in that position.

Regulation 17

Surprised you couldn't find it here: https://usa.rugby/disciplinary

But in RFU Land that someone quoted earlier:

RFU Regulation 19:

19.1.2 Separate regulations may be issued for the Premiership or any other league and/or match/competition/tournament where there is any variation of the following disciplinary procedures.

I will not offer any more as it would appear the people that were sat here, not at the pitches and were not part of the organisation, or the immediate discussion with the intent of gaining a mutual understanding of the incident at hand, seem to know best. Despite that the OP has subsequently illuminated the situation to broadly support an estimation of the activity that I surmised and not the heinous crime that some would have us think had occurred.

As normal the few skew the process and castigate people based on interpretations and wholesale guesses rather than considering the breadth of possibilities that could have occurred and may come to light after due assessment of evidence and facts

I am sure they make great administrators but perhaps do not realise that the most significant part of the role of officiating is enabling the game with respect and safety, not having a discussion to demonstrate that they may have more theoretical knowledge of the Laws and Regulation and not being the centre of attention. And getting upset because someone has a differing perspective.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I'm glad you said this, because that's kind of what my head has been wondering too. Especially in regards to how the ref society works in some of these other countries, where it sounds like they have to ask their society for permission to referee an unsanctioned / friendly match.

It's very surprising to me that for those referees, if 14 of their mates wanted to get together and play 7 on 7 and asked them to referee their pickup game of rugby, as someone who is knowledgeable of the laws because they happen to be a referee, but they aren't representing their referee society in an official capacity (because it's an unsanctioned match), that they'd have to ask for permission from their society to do so.

Obviously the match I presented in the original question was a little less casual than that, it being between two actual teams and not mates, and officiated by a neutral ref, but similar in spirit.

You can do it. However, The support of the union will not be there and legal support if something goes wrong etc will not come from the union. On your own head. Especially if the players don't expect to be held to rugbys laws and regs.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Regulation 17

Surprised you couldn't find it here: https://usa.rugby/disciplinary

But in RFU Land that someone quoted earlier:



I will not offer any more as it would appear the people that were sat here, not at the pitches and were not part of the organisation, or the immediate discussion with the intent of gaining a mutual understanding of the incident at hand, seem to know best. Despite that the OP has subsequently illuminated the situation to broadly support an estimation of the activity that I surmised and not the heinous crime that some would have us think had occurred.

As normal the few skew the process and castigate people based on interpretations and wholesale guesses rather than considering the breadth of possibilities that could have occurred and may come to light after due assessment of evidence and facts

I am sure they make great administrators but perhaps do not realise that the most significant part of the role of officiating is enabling the game with respect and safety, not having a discussion to demonstrate that they may have more theoretical knowledge of the Laws and Regulation and not being the centre of attention. And getting upset because someone has a differing perspective.

Well in fairnes if the "facts" had been given at the outset then maybe the discussion could have been better. No?

 

[jdeagro]

if you referee a pick up game - in a public park for instance, then who is insuring you? who is insuring the players ?

The same as any other pickup game of any other sport. It's pickup, the most casual of level, so none of that is contextually relevant.

of course you might do it anyway, and there's no law against it, but you wouldn't be doing it as an official society ref.

Right, which is what my previous message stated. Now that does beg the question though, did the neutral ref who took up this game in question, officiate in capacity of their ref society, and what risks are they taking by doing so in such a situation. I guess stuff that should be established with the ref prior to a grey area type of game like this. And if they are acting in an official capacity, then I believe red / yellow cards should follow the regulations accordingly. Not sure who you'd attribute the match organizers to in this case though.

I think you are also getting confused about 'sanctioned' and friendlies.

every game a rugby club organises is sanctioned/allowed and everyhing comes uinder the governance of the RFU. It's kinda the defintion of a rugby club. They can arrange to play a friendly next week, and ask the society to send a ref, and we'll gladly do it.

Yes I understand that. Intent is important in all of that too, but if we're specifically saying "the club" organized it, then the intent for it to be sanctioned is implicit anyway. Conversely, members of a club could schedule a pickup game between members of another club, and it would not be sanctioned because the intent was for it to be casual, and not under the authority of the club as an entity itself.

 

[crossref]

I will not offer any more as it would appear the people that were sat here, not at the pitches and were not part of the organisation, or the immediate discussion with the intent of gaining a mutual understanding of the incident at hand, seem to know best. Despite that the OP has subsequently illuminated the situation to broadly support an estimation of the activity that I surmised and not the heinous crime that some would have us think had occurred.

a RC is a RC. It's not appropriate for a tournament organiser, or even a 'head ref' (whatever that is) to hold an impromptu disciplinary tribunal, just a few minutes after the game, and determine whether or not a red card was correctly or incorrectly issued. Someone else above used the word 'clusterfuck' and every detail we've had since the OP has made it sound worse!


at the tournament keep it simple : get a RC and you can't play that day.

 

[crossref]

Conversely, members of a club could schedule a pickup game between members of another club, and it would not be sanctioned because the intent was for it to be casual, and not under the authority of the club as an entity itself.

No, that can't happen. The whole point of a rugby club is that it is registered with, and governed by the rules and regs of its national body.

a rugby club can't organise a rugby game and simply declare that the regs or laws don't apply today.

 

[jdeagro]

No, that can't happen. The whole point of a rugby club is that it is registered with, and governed by the rules and regs of its national body.

a rugby club can't organise a rugby game and simply declare that the regs or laws don't apply today.

Seems you missed the part where I made a distinction between the club as an entity itself vs people who happen to play rugby for a club but are wanting to play pickup rugby from time to time. The latter would be unsanctioned. To your (and others) point that it wouldn't be supported by the Union, especially should anything happen legally speaking, but it's still possible for an unsanctioned event to happen. I've played in many myself. There's nothing preventing such an event from occurring in actuality.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

The same as any other pickup game of any other sport. It's pickup, the most casual of level, so none of that is contextually relevant.

Right, which is what my previous message stated. Now that does beg the question though, did the neutral ref who took up this game in question, officiate in capacity of their ref society, and what risks are they taking by doing so in such a situation. I guess stuff that should be established with the ref prior to a grey area type of game like this. And if they are acting in an official capacity, then I believe red / yellow cards should follow the regulations accordingly. Not sure who you'd attribute the match organizers to in this case though.

Yes I understand that. Intent is important in all of that too, but if we're specifically saying "the club" organized it, then the intent for it to be sanctioned is implicit anyway. Conversely, members of a club could schedule a pickup game between members of another club, and it would not be sanctioned because the intent was for it to be casual, and not under the authority of the club as an entity itself.

Seems you missed the part where I made a distinction between the club as an entity itself vs people who happen to play rugby for a club but are wanting to play pickup rugby from time to time. The latter would be unsanctioned. To your (and others) point that it wouldn't be supported by the Union, especially should anything happen legally speaking, but it's still possible for an unsanctioned event to happen. I've played in many myself. There's nothing preventing such an event from occurring in actuality.

In any sport I imagine you would have the same question of referee insurance.

This game was running "during" a tournament If it was not made clear there is a clear inference that it was official. The ref would be on dodgy ground. It is not fair to put him in that position.

Maybe the "club" can organise an impromptu game. Thankfully, that would not be so here.

Of course nothing stops a group of people playing a game with "jumpers for goal posts". However, I'm not refereeing that. It is to open to opinion and confusion.

In short. To find out what the "official line" is in the US I really suggest you ask the US authorities. Those of us elsewhere in the world, including Biking Bud, can only guess at your regulations. We can only say what would happen where we are. You have to abide by US regulations. Simon Smith has already tried to point you in that direction. Is there a reason why you are not listening to him?

 

[crossref]

Seems you missed the part where I made a distinction between the club as an entity itself vs people who happen to play rugby for a club but are wanting to play pickup rugby from time to time. The latter would be unsanctioned. To your (and others) point that it wouldn't be supported by the Union, especially should anything happen legally speaking, but it's still possible for an unsanctioned event to happen. I've played in many myself. There's nothing preventing such an event from occurring in actuality.

A pick up game of random individual people in a park or on a beach could happen obviously.

But members of club A who organised a game of beach rugby against club B are not allowed to declare the game outwith the laws and regulations of their country ("forget that sternum nonsense, high tackles allowed"), and if they did, and the RfU found out (because someone got injured perhaps) the clubs would be in trouble

But I don't know why you are digging this hole jdeagro , the OP scenario was nothing like that !

 

[crossref]

let's have some more OP details?

Who organised the tournament and where was it played ?

(As a wild guess, was the tournament organised by club B and played at their ground??)